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I think an interesting thread would be something along the lines of taking only a bible and outlining the scriptural duties and responsibilities that we can truly prove out in scripture for the different offices. That might clear up a lot of things for me anyway.
To bring up your above post again, Alpha, I was curious what your thoughts were on the scriptures I posted earlier which I believe refer to NTC "offices"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
Following are some verses I got together for discussion.. how do they fit into this chapter?
1 Tim 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The above verses seem to make it clear that there were "offices" in the NTC.. but they were filled by brethren who were not self-ordained, but rather chosen and given this trust by their own brethren.
1 Tim 4: 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
It sounds like the work of an elder included exhortation and teaching sound doctrine.. and they were looked up to as an example. It mentions in verse 14 that this gift was given, or perhaps publicly recognized, by the laying on of hands. Also, in these verses we can see that "elder" did not necessarily mean "older".
1 Tim. 6: 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 2Tim 1:6 ¶ Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 2Tim:1 ¶ Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 2 Tim 4: 1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. Titus 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 1Peter 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 5 ¶ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Heb 13: 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. ............... :17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
The above verses contain instructions and paint a picture of the working-together of the early church. Exhortations are given to some to lead, preach, and teach.. but I think 1 Peter 5:5 (bolded above) sums it all up. "Yea, all of you be subject one to another and be clothed with humility." This is vital. There is no way that a church could function like the NTC without this... and I believe that this is one of the biggest problems behind the apostacy of the church.. pride. When the church ceased to walk in humility one with another, sharing their burdens, confessing their faults, being of one accord and of one mind.. then this pride (and spiritual laziness) caused the variation from God's plan of a every-member-functioning church... and some were lifted up.. and some were happy to warm the bench. The faithful Church was soon, and forever after would be, a persecuted minority.
The final exhortation of Paul to the elders, encouraging them to continue to take care of the church. This is still an important place to fill today...
Acts 20:17 ¶ And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
I know we've maybe moved past this chapter... just wanted to hear more of your thoughts on this.
Yes, it's amazing to see how "the rubber meets the road" like you mentioned... but it has to happen at the right time. Man, that discussion seems like a LONG time ago! And yet I still remember it like it happened yesterday...
Well, it took me a little to reacquaint myself, but it did come back to me too.
Looking forward to your comments on 7 and please get brushed up on 8 too. I have a feeling I might be on 8 for a few days.....interesting things there!
Well, it took me a little to reacquaint myself, but it did come back to me too.
Looking forward to your comments on 7 and please get brushed up on 8 too. I have a feeling I might be on 8 for a few days.....interesting things there!
Got a busybusy weekend ahead.. but I'm looking forward to reading it over!
To bring up your above post again, Alpha, I was curious what your thoughts were on the scriptures I posted earlier which I believe refer to NTC "offices"?
I know we've maybe moved past this chapter... just wanted to hear more of your thoughts on this.
Worship is the act of man (if he believes) ) in raising his heart and soul to God either in prayer, song. praise,thanksgiving, etc.. Worship may take place with other believers...and often alone.. just silently feeling His presence gently stirring the depths of your very soul ..
Worship to me is:
Longing to be with Him, desiring His presence!
Seeking His face all day long in all things.
Talking to and with Him and sometimes it is with laughter, crying, singing, thanking Him, asking, searching, praising.
He is my Father, He always hears me.....
Acts 17:28
For in Him we live and move and have our being.
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He's gonna be busy!
What is worship?
