Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I believe the purpose of the church is to be a family.....
If one thinks about their family, you are accepted no matter what. A family is a place where one has freedom to love, rebuke, encourage, learn, grow, one is accepted, trust is not questioned.
Everyone has a part and a place in the family. You are who you are in the circle. No false pretense!!!
Quote:
Now the Church is made up of many members.. each one is necessary. And "ideally" (I say this, but I'm not sure.. because isn't God's plan ideal?), there would probably have been no need for the "elders, bishops, and deacons" of the NTC.. but the fact remains that we are human, and living in a very human world. False doctrine is rampant. Casualness wants to creep in.
Yes, God's plan is ideal. I totally agree with what you have post...
I can see why there was no need to have such offices in the NTC. They gather to a place that was a refuge, secured from the worlds ways.
They had no need to have leaders within there midst.
They were so tightly integrated with one another. Their focus was to encourage, share, learn from one another and to honor what Christ had spoken to them and called to do by going out into the world and be a witness to God's kingdom.
Is it so much that it not casualness creeping in, but sin.......?
A refuge is finding the comfort, joy, being together among one another for whatever.
It's just when I imagine in my spirit how it could have been in their time, they true loved one another..
God's love was so in their midst it overshadowed anything that tried to interfere with their worshipping together.
The ones called, from among the brethren, to this "watchman" calling felt the responsibility keenly. They needed to be weak of themselves, and strong in God. Their charge was to give themselves to study, preach, exhort, teach sound doctrine.. that the Church would shine as a light in the world, and continue until the end of time.
Accountability.. to God, to the brethren.. and thus to the Church... ("everyone members one of another").
Amen!!
By the way what chapter are you on? 5?
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 06-02-2008 at 06:57 PM..
Reason: change sentence wording
I believe the purpose of the church is to be a family.....
If one thinks about their family, you are accepted no matter what. A family is a place where one has freedom to love, rebuke, encourage, learn, grow, one is accepted, trust is not questioned.
Everyone has a part and a place in the family. You are who you are in the circle. No false pretense!!!
I agree... the NTC was a family!
Quote:
Yes, God's plan is ideal. I totally agree with what you have post...
I can see why there was no need to have such offices in the NTC. They gather to a place that was a refuge, secured from the worlds ways.
They had no need to have leaders within there midst.
They were so tightly integrated with one another. Their focus was to encourage, share, learn from one another and to honor what Christ had spoken to them and called to do by going out into the world and be a witness to God's kingdom.
I still am not sure about what I posted here:
Quote:
And "ideally" (I say this, but I'm not sure.. because isn't God's plan ideal?), there would probably have been no need for the "elders, bishops, and deacons" of the NTC..
.. because it is clear at least to me that there were elders, bishops and deacons in the NTC, and this was a doing of God, not of man. You mentioned that you can see that there was no need for offices, and I agree depending on what you mean by this. I see this in the NTC as more of a "calling" than an "office", the way we see it today. I completely agree with what we are all saying regarding today's pastoral role not fitting with the NTC, but I am saying that there is another way, not described in the book Pagan Christianity. The author does touch on the need for "apostolic workers" today (he would see himself as one) and I must say that the "offices" of the NTC resembled this role more closely than the modern pastoral role.
Some differing points between a NTC apostolic worker and modern-day pastor:
Part of the apostolic worker's focus was the continuation and furthering of the Church... he would visit other congregations of believers and see how they were doing. The modern-day pastor usually shepherds his one congregation.
The apostolic workers would work together on certain missions.. they would travel back and forth. The focus was not on "one man" but rather, they acted as ministering servants of God and the Church. Their greatest concern was the spiritual condition of the body. Can you imagine the pastors of your town feeling just as much at home in the other churches of your area, and teaming up with each other from time to time to prove a spiritual matter? This happened all the time in the NTC.
Once again, we are talking about leadership, but something entirely different than what we are seeing today, althought I do fully believe that many pastors today have their congregation's best interest at heart.
Quote:
By the way what chapter are you on? 5?
I think we're still on that chapter... it actually seems to be the most important chapter of the book.
I think an interesting thread would be something along the lines of taking only a bible and outlining the scriptural duties and responsibilities that we can truly prove out in scripture for the different offices. That might clear up a lot of things for me anyway.
This chapter on the pastor has me totally perplexed.
It's like we're killing these poor guys and they are just lining up to be killed. The statistics provided were sad. And as mentioned earlier we need to be much in prayer for our pastors....but like I said....who are our pastors? I've got at least two pastors right here on CD, if ya know what I mean....and I think most of you do.
I can tell you that based on my limited exposure to the things people come and pour out on their spiritual leaders, the pastors in churches have heard more and dealt with more than most of us could ever imagine. And then they have to handle these different situations in a biblical manner while still being members of society and having certain requirements in that regard as well. Unreal the toll this must take on someone in the pastoral role for +30 years.
You guys know I've been covered up personally lately, so I apologize if this discussion has been dragging a little. I was actually able to sit down last night and read the next chapter of this one. Something it's been a while since I've been able to do.
So, on 'dressing up' for church and the garbs that go along with some denominations for their clergy.....
What's your thoughts?
Should how we present ourselves in church ever be something that we should concern ourselves with?
I've always been of the opinion that we should dress respectfully towards God when we come to church and that we shouldn't really wear 'the' best, but we should look our best.
The points on a false image of perfection were cutting though......
I think an interesting thread would be something along the lines of taking only a bible and outlining the scriptural duties and responsibilities that we can truly prove out in scripture for the different offices. That might clear up a lot of things for me anyway.
I've thought of this same thing.. I think it would be a good idea!
Yes, God's plan is ideal. I totally agree with what you have post...
I can see why there was no need to have such offices in the NTC. They gather to a place that was a refuge, secured from the worlds ways.
They had no need to have leaders within there midst.
They were so tightly integrated with one another. Their focus was to encourage, share, learn from one another and to honor what Christ had spoken to them and called to do by going out into the world and be a witness to God's kingdom.
What I meant was the pastors role.
Today not in the NTC, the role of the elders, bishops, deacons. It isn't the same as the NTC. It is kind of like a popularity thing instead of a true calling. But not in all the churches.
To early in the morning !
Boy that whole paragraph is not very clear..... sorry!!!
It's like we're killing these poor guys and they are just lining up to be killed. The statistics provided were sad. And as mentioned earlier we need to be much in prayer for our pastors....but like I said....who are our pastors? I've got at least two pastors right here on CD, if ya know what I mean....and I think most of you do.
I can tell you that based on my limited exposure to the things people come and pour out on their spiritual leaders, the pastors in churches have heard more and dealt with more than most of us could ever imagine. And then they have to handle these different situations in a biblical manner while still being members of society and having certain requirements in that regard as well. Unreal the toll this must take on someone in the pastoral role for +30 years.
I so agee with you Alpha....
The Lord long time ago gave me such a burden for the Pastor and his family.
I have some very dear friends who have been in the ministry for 40 something years and have seen and prayed with them about a lot of things they had to endure.... It breaks my heart!
There are some great man of God out there that are so weary in their calling.....
So, on 'dressing up' for church and the garbs that go along with some denominations for their clergy.....
What's your thoughts?
Should how we present ourselves in church ever be something that we should concern ourselves with?
I've always been of the opinion that we should dress respectfully towards God when we come to church and that we shouldn't really wear 'the' best, but we should look our best.
The points on a false image of perfection were cutting though......
others?
My thoughts on this are varied..
First of all, I disagree with members of clergy wearing separate garb. Every one is on the same level with God, and these vestments seem to speak of the old law and priesthood... unnecessary and perhaps leaving a harmful effect.
The NTC believers probably didn't have as many changes of clothing as we do.. and so this probably wasn't an issue. I can imagine tho that they will have wanted to look decent.
Now we today have so much available.. where do we draw the line? I don't think that we need to have expensive, outstanding clothing to wear to church... in fact, I would say that we probably shouldn't. However, I would have a question with someone who would wear a business suit during the week, expensive evening clothes to go out in the evening, and then on Sunday wear a t-shirt, shorts and sandals. If all we have is a t-shirt, shorts and sandals, then by all means wear them to church.. nothing wrong with that. But what is our attitude showing if we go into the opposite ditch from dressing up and we "dress down"? I think "temperance" would be a good term to use here.
Like to hear more thoughts.
Last edited by cg81; 06-03-2008 at 10:08 AM..
Reason: clarity
First of all, I disagree with members of clergy wearing separate garb. Every one is on the same level with God, and these vestments seem to speak of the old law and priesthood... unnecessary and perhaps leaving a harmful effect.
I so agree with this! My thoughts are it is leaving a harmful effect! For the reason we have discuss before.
Its like it is putting them at a higher level along with God. And psychologically it is quenching the Spirit in many lives, who falter in thinking they are not good enough and fall short of their own calling. Which is wrong for them to think this way.... but people do! Especially ones who are still new in the Lord.
And that is what the enemy does to keep them in bondage to self-serving.....and instead coming away from the flesh!!! Because really none of us will ever be good enough and some the snare of the enemy is to think we are. It is the Holy Spirit who gives us the ability to serve God.
Am I sounding clear?
Quote:
But what is our attitude showing if we go into the opposite ditch from dressing up and we "dress down"? I think "temperance" would be a good term to use here.
I agree once again.
Sometimes I just feel like putting on a dress and other times I have worn pants to church.
I have to share a story. It falls into the line of what we wear and the motive behind it.
I was given a 1kt diamond ring...... I was so proud of it! One day I was driving somewhere, can't remember, anyway. My hands were on the steering wheel and I kept looking at it. The Lord spoke so deep to my heart. I heard Him say and ask me..... what are you thinking?
I became so embarrassed!!! Right there before the Lord. Pride had enter my heart.
I took the ring off for many of years, until one day the Lord spoke to my heart and said, now you can wear it.....
So I do understand what this chapter is saying...... why do we dress up? For me it took a diamond ring to realize the truth in my heart.
God wanted all of me and it didn't matter how and what I wore. It is such a freedom....
Blessings
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 06-03-2008 at 10:42 AM..
June, however, has a music teacher (or two) right here on CD, if ya know what she means...
Then again, when she considers what it is that she means, she has to go:
--Do ya know what I mean?
Take gentle musical care.
I do know whatcha mean, if ya know what I mean... ;D
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
!
;D
