For Believers (and non if interested)--Pagan Christianity Book Thread (Holy Spirit, Jesus)

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

If you aren't growing and flourishing, is it really church?

<Blueberry is walking on tiptoes . . .>

Whose responsibility is it to see that we grow and flourish? Ultimately, it's our own. I don't think we need anyone else. God is sufficient. Are we willing to listen to Him? Are we willing to follow where He leads us? The Bible is a bonus. Are we taking advantage of the bonus material provided? Are we hiding it in our hearts? It's considered spiritual food. Are we feeding from it, or are we too lazy to prepare a good meal and are content to eat the crumbs from others? (It's OK to seek out a good restaurant on occasion, but we're usually healthier if we take charge of our own diet.) A local body of believers is a rich blessing, but we don't need it.

A pastor can lead us to good food and water, but he can't make us take it in. If he's not doing an adequate job, we have a choice to wither and die on the vine or to seek nourishment for ourselves. (Picture plants that send out feelers.) When we find good nourishment elsewhere, we can choose to stay where we are and hopefully strengthen the withering plant, or we can graft ourselves to a different plant.

For what it's worth, a large portion of Christians I've seen on the internet are here because something is missing in the local body. It's a fairly widespread problem. The problem, however, is that there's a whole grocery store full of ideas out here, and many Christians will pick up the wrong food to put in their carts. That's where the local body of believers comes in. There's no accountability in cyberspace, but there is in real life. It's more comfortable to exist in cyberspace where people don't know who we are and we can shut our ears to what we don't want to hear.

~~~~~

I think part of the problem is we are conditioned to think that all the answers lie in church, and we don't realize we can establish our own ministries and fellowships outside the boundaries of the church. We tend to think that if the church isn't willing to sponsor an activity, then we can't participate in that activity. I have personally seen thriving ministries started by people who got absolutely no support from the local body of believers. But these believers had a passion, and they worked for what they believed in. Their enthusiasm and success eventually caught the eyes of other believers who joined them in their endeavors. That's probably how "church" is really supposed to work. Let's do the things God puts on our hearts whether others support or not.

Are we ready to move on to "The Pastor"?

I'm ready to move on, but I need to read the chapter. I'm supposed to have a quiet afternoon, so I should be good to go.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by cg81

Sorry about my numerous small posts here, but just some thoughts..

I completely agree with you that we as Christians have a need to be prepared. We need to study God's Word, and know it in our hearts firsthand. But isn't the Sword of the Spirit the best defense? I really do not think we need anything more than that. Actually, I don't think there is anything superior to that.

Ah, but you have to know how to use the Sword!

Have you trained with it?
Are you comfortable holding it?
Do you know the nuances of it's balance?
Have you studied the enemy's technique so you can counter his (inferior) blade?
How many defenses have you learned?
Can you hold the sword in your right hand as easily as your left?

(Watch Princess Bride to understand what I'm saying! Pirates of the Caribbean will give you the idea, too!!)

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

Ah, but you have to know how to use the Sword!

Have you trained with it?
Are you comfortable holding it?
Do you know the nuances of it's balance?
Have you studied the enemy's technique so you can counter his (inferior) blade?
How many defenses have you learned?
Can you hold the sword in your right hand as easily as your left?

(Watch Princess Bride to understand what I'm saying! Pirates of the Caribbean will give you the idea, too!!)

I agree, training, growth, sanctification and knowledge are necessary. My question is.. who teaches us that? God or school?

[cg81]

I left my book and some scripture notes at home today but I’ll try to bring out my thoughts on "the pastor"..

I believe that the contemporary paid, schooled pastor who is the ultimate leader of a church is not scriptural, and I agree with many of the reasons that the author brings out showing this to be a hindrance to spiritual growth in a congregation.



Some points:

- There is no need for a “mediator” or priest between us and God

- There may be a lack of personal accountability and responsibility (who’s going to question him?)

- Is “head knowledge” and schooling, etc, substituting the Spirit’s voice?

- The congregation, who should be active, gets used to a passive, listening role. (I hope the pastor inspires me today!) Inspires me to what, for what?

- Is the “pastor versus congregation” setting truly displaying the unity found in these verses?

Romans 12: 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

BUT I believe there is a middle road in all this.. and by “middle” I don’t mean “compromise”.

If you read Paul’s letter’s to Timothy, it’s obvious (to me at least!) that although Timothy was part of the group of believers, he was a leader of some sort. Instructions (or qualifications) are given for bishops and deacons, and Paul also makes this statement:

1 Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

There are other passages in the NT which refer to bishops, deacons, shepherds etc. We can’t all be shepherds, there must be some sheep!

Then what is the difference between the contemporary pastor and NTC “leaders”?

The leaders in the NTC were from among the brethren. As Frank mentioned, gifts were noticed and recognized, because they were all one family. (This is far different than the situation today, when someone decides that they have a calling to be a pastor, goes to school, learns how to be one, and gets hired to a congregation of strangers to work for them.) And the “leaders” remained part of the family. (everyone members one of another) Everyone was open to reproof, correction.. and no one was greater than another. God could speak to each one.

Frank calls some of these leaders “apostolic workers” who were concerned about the founding and nurture of the church, and says that after they died, this office passed away also. I disagree. I believe that “apostolic workers” are alive, well and vital today. The church still needs them.



Following are some more verse that suggest that even tho all were of one body, yet there were different offices needed to function. I believe that this is where the first “deacons” were called out..

Acts 6:1 ¶ And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

If you study this passage, you can see that there were some who were "giving themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word" and there were also their brethren, among whom were called out seven men of honest report. Equal? Yes. Identical duties? No.

This passage shows the beauty of the church working together… not one, not two, but in unity.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by cg81

I agree, training, growth, sanctification and knowledge are necessary. My question is.. who teaches us that? God or school?

Who taught you to read and write--God or school? What do you think the chances of you learning to do either well would have been if someone hadn't taught you? Would God have taught you if you hadn't received this training elsewhere?

God equips us with the basic tools of learning (vision, hearing, intellect, memory, motor skills, etc.), but He has given mankind the burden of learning to use the tools. Skills don't come through osmosis, wishful thinking, or good intentions. They come through diligent study and applied use.

I read a magazine article several years ago that will illustrate my point. The author relayed an incident in his own Spirit filled church, which was full of godly men endowed with wisdom and Biblical knowledge. These men were fellowshipping together and somehow discovered that the vast majority of them (including deacons/elders) DID NOT know how to lead another person to Christ. They couldn't identify a simple plan, nor could they come up with appropriate verses to apply to principles. That knowledge embarrassed and shamed them, and it prodded them into action. It encouraged them to not only learn how to effectively share their faith, but also to become adequately trained in other areas as well so the entire body could more effectively use the spiritual gifts they had been given but had so far largely ignored because they didn't know how to use them. Before training, their skills were so-so at best; after training, they were adequately prepared and discovered a vibrancy, urgency, and excitement they hadn't felt before.

A few questions to ponder: Do you want to be unskilled, merely adequate, or exceptional? Which do you think God would want you to be? If given the opportunity to be exceptional, should you take it? Would you lose anything by being exceptional? Would you lose anything by being merely adequate? What would you lose if you were unskilled? These questions led me to think about the parable of the talents. (Matt. 25:14-30)

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

A few questions to ponder: Do you want to be unskilled, merely adequate, or exceptional?

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

All I want is that people can see that I have been with Jesus..

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by cg81

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

All I want is that people can see that I have been with Jesus..

Toucheʹ! Good job, cg!!!!

[june 7th]

Originally Posted by blue62

Are we learning that in order to have our eyes opened we have to be able to leave the box that we have been in

June has but one comment as regards the above:

[JamesMRohde]

I read all this thread before I'm posting. This is only my 3rd post at city-data. But, I'm sooooooo excited about this book!

I almost had a meltdown of joy when it came out in 2004 under Violas authorship. I read a lot, yet this was and remains on my top 10. Re-released Dec '07 with Barna added as a co-author it's not greatly changed. I wish Barna had acknowledged it was largely Viola's writing. I could honor him more. Then too, Viola was associated with Gene Edwards for many yeaers. He's basically a more academic "channeling" of Edwards, whose book Beyond Radical is much the same ground, only very simply written and without citations verifying the information as Viola did. It's available at Seedsowers Christian Books Publishing House

Anyhow, I saw this through Scripture, so when these historical verifications came out it's a little different, but so joy inducing it's indescribable. It's what could be called negative (an unbiblical category) in that it cuts down a lot of the weeds that choke out the word and make it unprofitable. Knowledge of what is false or tradition helps allow the truth to rise.

My copies at this point have been given away. The last was to our county library system with hopes and prayers they'll put it into circulation. Though I have the original '04 edition, I hope you'll mention the title of the chapters as you go so I can follow along better. I've read it more than once, parts of it many times in the original. I've examined some of the differences in the Barna/Viola edition but can't hold on to it long enough to re-read it. The least expensive place to purchase Pagan Christianity is Viola's web page. He has some other very good, even free stuff there. www.ptmin.org

Referring to something earlier...

All word: dry up.
All spirit: Blow up.
Spirit and Word: grow up!

[cg81]

A few times the author mentions the term "non-hierarchical leadership". I agree with this term as it relates to the NTC.. Any thoughts?