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I lost my origional post so will have to do it again..This book is definitely not for the new christian or for one who is content with where they are..For people like myself who question todays religion practices and the rules and traditions attached, the book is quite helpful..It confirms my belief that todays churches are not like the first century churches that the apostles set up and lost their lives in the process..I believe the definition of church has even changed through the centuries..We seem to have lost the truth that we are the temple (the church), and God now dwells within us. Imo the early church in its struggle to survive felt the need to have someone to look to to "feed" them as the apostles did through their visits and letters..
Alpha, I share your opening sentiments. However, I do believe the group here is a mature group and is aware of your concerns. I know I prayed for discernment and guidance.. not to "buy in" without some scrutiny or thought on my part.
What I came away with about having physical buildings set aside as churches is that yes, we can have a building to meet and gather. That's not exactly the problem. However, the designs of those buildings hinder spiritual growth. They are designed to pacity us into a routine .. to be talked at rather than be in conversation with.
I don't necessarily hold the authors' viewpoint that all the decoration and architecture necessarily needs done away with and is a bad thing simply because it has pagan roots, like stain glass or statuary or steeples. Those are a comfort for some and help others focus. But I do see their point about the set up being more conducive to observing than participation and that being the real hinderance: lack of active participation, which the church building silently enforces.
About doing church the same way we have, whether we should or not... let me just say I get a spiritual thrill when I have edifying exchanges on this forum. I think that's what makes it addictive in some repsects. There is the open dialogue here that is not present at a Sunday service. Experiences and testimonies and lessons learned exchanged between us helps us grow and learn. Current buildings do not permit this, as most of the time you're sitting, facing the back of someone's head. Maybe we should do more small groups and less "offical" sunday services.
Oh June, I hope that I didn't say anything to upset you in any way, I promise, that was not my intention.
Huh? No, you didn't say anything to upset me...I was just responding to the fact that in reading this book thus far, that I am excrutiatingly aware of the fact that I no doubt do have a different perspective. --Which is okay with me so long as it's okay with the rest of you!
Aiangel, my dear, you should know that you could never upset June!!! "hug"
Hey everyone, Im still planning on reading the book. Havent got it yet. Bad move ordering it from Amazon. My husband said he ordered a book once and it took like 2 weeks! So maybe if I have some time Ill just go over to the bookstore and read for a bit. Shoulve just bought it there in the first place!!
I can't really chat long, but I will say.... Our church is in the middle of a capital campaign for adding a new addition. This is a VERY intersting book to read at the same time this is going on.
The first chapter in this book speaks about questioning..I believe the questioning the author had comes from a deep rooted feeling of dissatisfaction with his spiritual life that seemed to have a lot of rules and rituals tacked on to something as simple and beautiful as the gathering of like minded sisters and brothers to share the joy and love of Christ with each other and to lift their voices in praise and prayer to him . I have asked myself many of the same questions over the years and have since found my answers...
I fully understand that today with so many christians living in communities that they need a place larger than someones home to worship together in, but I don't see the reason for huge cathedral type structures today and the pain of wondering if the collection this week will be enough for all the expenses..The worry takes away friom the worship of our Lord who told us not to worry about tomorrow..I would find much pleasure in perhaps a rented or donated place without all the overhead expenses..Like Mams, I also am spiritually lifted many times in this forum, many times I feel the presence of the spirit working here.I am uplifted by the discussions and the praise threads.I enjoy learning from other people on this forum and reading their testimonies.. I am free here to praise, share and minister without being afraid of breaking any of the rules I had to follow in organized churches..I very seldom spoke to anyone (beside my children) about spiritual matters, lest I break some rule, and never said a public prayer until I came here lest someone followed my prayer with a proper one..
It is worth noting that the author sums up the first chapter by saying that if you are completly satisfied with your place of worship, and don't feel the need to question it not to read the book..I enjoyed how he presents the historical and biblical facts that finally make sense..I will comment on chapter 2 tomorrow because it is very late and I have droned on and on with this one and it will probably not make sense to me in the morning, and I will be very embarrassed
It makes sense to me that the church would have undergone a cultural evolvutionary process since it's inception, and I enjoy the historical aspects that the authors highlight. For me, it puts alot in perspective: the early influencing factors that contributed to the formation of what we now know today as "the church." One thing that surprised me early on (as regards Winchester's internal dialogue in church) was the fact that the authors point out that such questions would "never enter the conscious thinking of most Christians." That I found somewhat perplexing; wondering, in fact, whether such questions would arise in many individuals, yet perhaps not be voiced.
Along the same lines, Viola and Barna state the following: "...We are conditioned to read the Bible with the lens handed to us by the Christian tradition to which we belong. We are taught to obey our denomination (or movement) and never to challenge what it teaches." (italics mine.) This genuinelly caught my attention, as I realized that I, in fact, have no real "lens" through which I am able to view any of this. For that reason, I honestly can't say that I have found anything that the authors have said to be challenging, shocking or even surprising. It struck me that in reading this book and acquiring a context within which to think about Christianity, that I was being introduced to an initial "lens."
It is therefore fascinating for me to read this book and enter into a discussion on it without any preconceived notions or any basis to feel threatened by what the authors are saying. Despite the fact that I took an OT course many , many years ago, I somewhat feel as though I am coming to this book and discussion with "virgin eyes." What the authors refer to as "a terrifying invitation" is for June an utterly sensible querie.
One last thing I would like to note: Within this whole context of "challenging" how Christians think about the church and their faith, I found myself having an "ah ha!" moment in reading the following: "With Jesus' coming, God the Father would no longer be worshipped in a mountain or a temple. He would instead be worshipped in spirit and reality." (p.14) That one line was incredibly validating, at the same time that I can't honestly say I understand it. I suppose it's validating in the sense that time and time again, in reading threads on this forum, with all the debating and in-fighting, I have found myself thinking that when you strip away all the nuances and differences among various denominations and believers, that you are left with a very simple yet powerful message that all would hopefully have in common, as the foundation or basis of their Christian faith. That one line underscored the fact that, (at least for me) when you strip away the various ways in which all those differences arose, you are left with the essence of something that all too often becomes lost...
And simply because I can't resist saying it, I will end with the following: I thoroughly enjoyed the authors referring to Winchester as a "heathen," along with the numerous references to "pagans!" --It made June feel a bit more "at home!"
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Ack, the discussion has started!
I've admired George Barna's work for years, and I've always appreciated the thoughtful questions he's asked about how Christians "do church" or how they're influencing culture. I don't think I've heard of Frank Viola before getting this book, but I was optimistic because of George Barna's participation. However, I've been very disappointed with the introduction/preface and first chapter. Both authors have exhibited a smugness about their own convictions, stating that Christians who are still in the traditional church have never bothered to question their traditions, don't know their history, or are are only there out of habit. Not only do I consider that arrogant and insulting, but I also find the authors reiterating the same tired allegations we see from non-Christians on this forum, the same arguments that many Christians have rebuffed. Furthermore, their conclusion that Christians will leave their churches or demand change once the truth is known is erroneous because many informed Christians do, in fact, continue in the traditional church. That's not to say that Christians are completely satisfied with their churches, it's just that they have their own reasons for staying, still have hopes for their churches, are getting their needs met, and/or are meeting the needs of others.
As for the family mentioned in the first chapter, I can definitely relate to their experiences. I don't think the father was as unusual as they made him sound. I've heard sermons preached on the issues the father was secretly contemplating. Rather than sympathizing with the father, however, I wanted to smack him! I think there are solutions to his questions that do not involve blaming the church or criticizing it's traditions. He could help his wife get the children ready. They could lay out their clothing the night before. They can either get up earlier on Sundays or start getting ready for church earlier. It's not the church's fault that he's received three speeding tickets; it's his own! I think there is a Biblical precedent for making ourselves presentable for God and paying the preacher; there are answers to his other questions, as well. The implication is that all of this man's problems with church could be solved if only he had a home fellowship. Baloney! Home fellowship presents some of the same challenges and comes with others unique to the fellowship.
I haven't read chapter 2 yet, but I'm sincerely hoping the tone of the book improves. The authors gained points by admonishing rebels not to cause division within the church. As I said, I'm a great admirer of George Barna. I do believe that how Christians "do church" could be greatly improved. I agree that home fellowships can answer the needs of many people and might more closely resemble early Christian fellowship. So, I'm looking forward to seeing the authors' insights and research.
Off to read chapter 2!
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Heathen reaction:
