Churches and 'Self Help' Books-General Discussion (Antichrist, euthanasia, protestant, recall)

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

I have to say in defense of fundamentalist,this has raised questions, among many Christian preachers, as to Rick Warren's NEW AGE preaching.

This is just some of what he said in his book.................Rick Warren « Theology and Steak...............Now, basically, the seeker movement is fundamentally well-intended. For one, the seeker movement was born out of and found success in Arminian churches, and this theology has driven the seeker movement. Rick Warren wrote this in his Purpose Driven Church book, “It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart, and the most likely place to start looking for that key is within the person’s felt needs.” If one believes that they can truly persuade someone to become a Christian, then it follows that they will gear their church and all of its activities toward that persuasion. It will be marketing-based, and it will be consumer-driven. Why? Because if I can truly convince someone to become a Christian, then everything I do must be towards that end. And if I believe that felt-needs are a key to making that persuasion, then my ministry will revolve around people and meeting their felt-needs. This is the heart of the seeker movement today. I can persuade people to become Christian, therefore I must gear my ministry around those means of persuasion. It is that simple, and makes perfect sense.

This is an Arminian/Pelagian theology, though. If I believe that I can convince people to become Christian, and people have the free will to actually make that decision within themselves, then the seeker movement is a logical outcome from this theology. The problem with this theology is that it is NOT Biblical.

So, if we have to convince or persuade people to come to Christ then what is the Holy Spirit doing????

First, if the only part Warren said was in quotes then the rest is just someone putting words in his mouth. Here's the part of your post that supposedly quotes Warren: “It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart, and the most likely place to start looking for that key is within the person’s felt needs.”

Also, the most logical response to your post is to ignore the Great Commission.....right? Because it's all the Holy Spirit's work and we must not play a role at all.

And that's wrong.

We are encouraged to reach people by meeting their needs and sharing the gospel with them.

As I've already said in this thread, it's all about BALANCE.

[wildflower82]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

First, if the only part Warren said was in quotes then the rest is just someone putting words in his mouth. Here's the part of your post that supposedly quotes Warren: “It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart, and the most likely place to start looking for that key is within the person’s felt needs.”

No one can be won (we are not, playing a game) to Christ and these are his words. Did Jesus ask his Apostles "What are your Needs"? Where in the Bible does God or Jesus talk about finding a key to one's needs?

I have plenty of needs ,but you supplying them for me, is not going to lead me to Jesus, if I'm just looking for a hand out. Matter of fact, I will keep returning and letting you take care of my needs and probably never understand that I have a role in this Jesus thin you keep telling me about. I have seen this situation, first hand so I do have incite.

Also, the most logical response to your post is to ignore the Great Commission.....right? Because it's all the Holy Spirit's work and we must not play a role at all.

And that's wrong.

No, I didn't say we shouldn't play a role. But, I do feel that Christians try to win people over by fear tactic or as in Rick Warren's case NO CONVICTION, we must feel conviction or your not getting the message, it's being watered down. I don't think this is a good message for new believers, what's your opinion?...............
YouTube - "Pastor" Rick Warren's Lie

Now keep in mind I don't believe in Hell and Brim Stone, but even going to a conversation that God likes us to be our selves, is a little of a stretch. I believe we can be good people, but I'm sure we are not the people God wants us to be.

We are encouraged to reach people by meeting their needs and sharing the gospel with them.

Well, this sounds exactly like Obama's plan for America, so between Obama (possibly, for President)giving more to the poor and Rick Warren(what some call, the Leader of Churches) wanting to give more to the poor, we can all just sit around and FEEL GOOD and be HAPPY being poor!! Why you should NOT befriend people just to lead them to Christ | GreatChristianLife.com

As I've already said in this thread, it's all about BALANCE.

And your right, balance is a good thing, it's just fair to let the people know that their needs are never truly met, until THEY build on the foundation of Jesus. After, all even cults will help with their needs, just to get them into that particular church.

[Alpha8207]

Ya know, I am just about at the end of my rope with people who think they hold the keys to the Kingdom of God.

3~Shepherds, I would think you would know me better than this post you have aimed at me and at Rick Warren. But instead of blowing up anymore with this (hopefully) righteous anger, I'm going to do something time consuming but relevant.

I'm going to respond to your post with the Word of God.......(all emphasis in scripture is added by me)

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

No one can be won (we are not, playing a game) to Christ and these are his words.

Really?

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. I Cor 9:19

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. I Cor 9:20

There's more, do you need them?

You're right, this isn't a game to me. This does seem to be a game with a few people here who want to play with semantics and take quotes out of context. But even out of context (much less in), you're arguments fall apart.

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

Did Jesus ask his Apostles "What are your Needs"? Where in the Bible does God or Jesus talk about finding a key to one's needs?

I have plenty of needs ,but you supplying them for me, is not going to lead me to Jesus, if I'm just looking for a hand out. Matter of fact, I will keep returning and letting you take care of my needs and probably never understand that I have a role in this Jesus thin you keep telling me about. I have seen this situation, first hand so I do have incite.

There's so much scripture on meeting folks needs, I don't' really know where to start.

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. I John 3:16-18 (one I had my youth group commit to memory)

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Romans 12:9-12

Usually this is where someone will respond back with the scripture about gaining the whole world and losing their soul. I've heard people criticize missionaries with that scripture. That's a complete misapplication. The scripture is about taking up YOUR cross and sacrificing YOURSELF, not using it as a weapon to attack others. Here it is, if you won't take my word for it, take Christ's Word for it:

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. Luke 9:23-26

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

No, I didn't say we shouldn't play a role. But, I do feel that Christians try to win people over by fear tactic or as in Rick Warren's case NO CONVICTION, we must feel conviction or your not getting the message, it's being watered down. I don't think this is a good message for new believers, what's your opinion?...............
YouTube - "Pastor" Rick Warren's Lie

Now keep in mind I don't believe in Hell and Brim Stone, but even going to a conversation that God likes us to be our selves, is a little of a stretch. I believe we can be good people, but I'm sure we are not the people God wants us to be.

Now I am TOTALLY confused.

You tell me there's a problem with Rick Warren's Gospel then you tell me you don't believe in Hell. And here I've been putting Christ's words in front of you to show you what He said about this subject and you don't even believe in Hell. so you don't like Jesus' gospel or Rick Warrens.....whose do you subscribe to?

Me thinks my wheels are spinning, but I ain't getting anywhere.

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

Well, this sounds exactly like Obama's plan for America, so between Obama (possibly, for President)giving more to the poor and Rick Warren(what some call, the Leader of Churches) wanting to give more to the poor, we can all just sit around and FEEL GOOD and be HAPPY being poor!! Why you should NOT befriend people just to lead them to Christ | GreatChristianLife.com
And your right, balance is a good thing, it's just fair to let the people know that their needs are never truly met, until THEY build on the foundation of Jesus. After, all even cults will help with their needs, just to get them into that particular church.

Apparently you missed the part where I said 'share the gospel' but no worries.

I've also NEVER befriended someone JUST to lead them to Christ (by the way, I guess you said we can't 'win' people to Christ but now you are saying we can 'lead' them to Christ. )

I'm sorry, but I've just got to share some more scripture:

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:30-32

Christ Himself said ""If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me" in Matthew 19. Wonder how that applies to Rick Warren. Have you seen what he does with his wealth?

Look, I'm not in the business of defending Rick Warren and I myself have some issues with PDL, but I am so tired of people coming to CD and criticizing other Christians when it appears their only ministry is trying to inflame people here and give other Christians a bad name.

Again, GOD HIMSELF used PDL to help make a change in me.....ME.....and millions of others.

Why do people criticize God's work?

[HotinAZ]

While I have in the past criticized Joel and Rick's works based upon the lack luster effort put into the gospel message of repentance and turning away from sin, or even mentioning sin at all, I have come to some interesting hindsights, while gaining further insights into these and many other men's works. The "seeker friendly" mentality of gaining souls. This is my take on this.

We, as human beings, are endowed with the breath of God, and this is only the fuel. Now, however and whenever one decides to give their life to God is entirely up to us. At some point, in a walk towards God, God calls and ignites the fuel giving it a spark. It is more of a tugging of the Holy Spirit. We have this faith that is hard to explain into words, but it is as real as I am typing. We just know.

Once that spark is lit, it begins to kindle. This is growing into His Word, and while doing so, He gives us more and more Truth as we can handle it. Then the kindling takes, and we become a fire. This fire is the transformation of the Holy Spirit and our Spirit coming together into the Body of Christ. A marriage so to speak. We become One with the only One, the I AM. Jesus said:

Luk 11:33
"No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light. The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness. Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness. If therefore your whole body is full of light, with no dark part in it, it will be wholly illumined, as when the lamp illumines you with its rays."

So "thinking" that the messages of the "seeker friendly" movements made by some of the fundies side of the Gospel might be bad, at the same time, preaching about the "hellfire and brimstone" message of the past may be equally as bad. A lot of people have been turned off by this preaching, and for that, those preachers will answer for it. Jesus was hardest on the "religious" of the day, and comforted those who were lost, by showing them what was lacking in thier lives. Love turns, anger burns.

Somewhere between the "bless me now" crowd, and the "burn baby burn" crowd, a sense of Love seems to have been lost. People are gravitating towards the message that makes them feel good, and while for some it is comfort, for others it is security.

I think God will work in those lives, who draw near to Him. It doesn't matter the route, as long as the heart is right with Him. It really is all about Jesus, His Son, and for this, we as humans are eternally grateful, even though some just don't know it yet, or can even COMPREHEND IT.

We must let God do the growing. We must just plant the seeds of the Word. Anytime we take the job of trying to grow the seeds, we "play" God. This is what some call "religion". I know I do. God convicts hearts, not men. God judges the secrets of the hearts, not men. God turns those hearts, writes His Laws upon them, and transforms them into His Children, not men.

I love to hear about different roads people are on, in their faith walks. Some are definitely more mature than others, and this is ok. Babes are more precious since we just had one,, so even though the babes make mistakes, it too is ok. It is part of the growth process into becoming ALL that God has intended for you, and me.

I am just thankful to be IN the family. Yes, our goals should be to grow into the finest Children of God we can be, but this takes time. Sometimes we just don't see the patience. Look back a couple of years ago for those who have been Christians for a while. Can you even tell your own growth? Are the fruits of the Spirit starting to become manifest? Patience, Love, Joy, and all that this entails?

[twin.spin]

From the 'for what's its worth' dept,
Our church once did a bible study on this topic, but from a different perspective. We started out with these verses:
Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

The question was asked, what is it to mean "with all"? To which the conclusion was when anything comes equal to or greater than God and his Word..then it is no longer "with all" and is not God pleasing... no matter how good or well intentioned that it maybe.

For instance, when an individual(s) Christians either:
1. spend more time defending other human authors rather than Gods Word
2. spending more time reading human authors words than Gods Word
3. financially supporting (in this case - The purposeful life) self help books and their words vs God and his Word
4. Seek out self help book authors opinions first vs God and his Word
then is no longer in keeping with "all your".

Who is Steve Warren and his word? Is his word worth as much attention, uproar, time spent emotional defending, money as is being spent vs God and his Word? Somebody mentioned balance. Where is the priority, to whom deserves all the attention?

This of course is not without precedence. Can anyone recall when an individual done something that was good and just and the assembly took it the wrong way? Call it the balance effect. Read the commentary to Jesus feeds the 5000

John 6:14-15
14After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." 15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself."

Why would Jesus withdrew himself when he was probably at his peek of public popularity? Though not expressed anywhere biblically, one can only reason that the miracle itself was becoming more important than God and his word to the crowd. The crowd was not keeping the correct balance between the miracle vs God and his word.

If only there was as much time, effort, emotion, excitement generated and publicity for Gods Word rather than for one mans book. This is where I see what is wrong with the purposeful life. Too many have defended and argued this to the point of almost making it equal to or greater than Gods Word.

What better book to find what my purpose in life than Gods Word?

[wildflower82]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

Ya know, I am just about at the end of my rope with people who think they hold the keys to the Kingdom of God.

Alpha, just so YOU know I am not claiming to hold the KEY to the Kingdom to God. I find this as an insult that you imply we should not debate this because YOU think YOU have the answer!! If you feel anger over defending this man then maybe you are the one that needs to step back and research this man that you claim to have the answers.
When respected Christians are questioning his P.E.A.C.E. Plan, then it is a call for all Christians to take a look at the man who claims he can combat the worlds problems. After all, didn't Jesus say, the world will be in turmoil when he arrives. This is Rick Warren's plan, I recommend you to at least take a look.......................................A GLOBAL PEACE PLAN
On Sunday, April 17, 2005 Speaking before 30,000 at Angel Stadium in Anaheim, he announced his Global Peace Plan. He believes it will herald in a new worldwide spiritual awakening in the 21st century.
But before he made the announcement, he decided to have some fun and surprised the audience when he said, “I've always wanted to do in this stadium.” He then sang an impersonation of Jimi Hendrix's hit song, Purple Haze. As the audience erupted into laughter, the church band joined in playing back up to it. http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s05040087.htm but as you can see his church removed it, He does this a lot!!!
I, as a, Christian really like Jimi, but I wouldn't play his music at a Christian function. Lots of Christian leaders and our Presidential Candidates are GUILTY of this!!

3~Shepherds, I would think you would know me better than this post you have aimed at me and at Rick Warren. But instead of blowing up anymore with this (hopefully) righteous anger, I'm going to do something time consuming but relevant.

I'm not aiming anything at you or Rick Warren. I just find his message, something that should be looked at. As you can see in the KJV the word is gain and not win. You know the meaning of each word, so I will let you do the research.
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. I Cor 9:19
KJV I Cor 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. I Cor 9:20
KJV I Cor 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law.

There's more, do you need them?

I would appreciate you respecting, that I know The Bible!! I still have a lot to learn, but when a word sounds, a little strange in the NIV or any other translation, I refer back to the King James.

You're right, this isn't a game to me. This does seem to be a game with a few people here who want to play with semantics and take quotes out of context. But even out of context (much less in), you're arguments fall apart.

Nothing was taken out of context on my part. Read the KJV and you will find gain,not win, as far as I'm concerned you can gain or lead them, but you don't win them to Christ.

There's so much scripture on meeting folks needs, I don't' really know where to start.

To save space I removed your verses, but I do thank you it also gives us this command.............1 Timothy 5:8 (New King James Version) But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. The needy need to know this scripture also!! We are to be encouraging helping yourself. You should only be needy for a moment it shouldn't be ones lifestyle and in America the poor have learned to use the system and Christians are buying into it by guilt.

You tell me there's a problem with Rick Warren's Gospel then you tell me you don't believe in Hell. And here I've been putting Christ's words in front of you to show you what He said about this subject and you don't even believe in Hell. so you don't like Jesus' gospel or Rick Warrens.....whose do you subscribe to?

I'm sorry, if I wasn't clear I don't believe in the Hellfire & Brimstone preaching. I certainly, believe in HELL!

I've also NEVER befriended someone JUST to lead them to Christ (by the way, I guess you said we can't 'win' people to Christ but now you are saying we can 'lead' them to Christ. )

Thanks, for the Scripture and I really never mind Christians referring so feel free!! I did remove them to save room.
As I explained before gain and win have two different meanings and this is what I'm going by. I can't argue the KJV with you it's what it is.

Christ Himself said ""If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me" in Matthew 19. Wonder how that applies to Rick Warren. Have you seen what he does with his wealth?

Living with purpose - Chicago Tribune article hosted on the Saddleback Church (Warren’s church) web site....For his part, Warren says he hears all the time that Saddleback is, as he puts it, “a shallow, superficial church that caters to the whims of consumeristic Christianity.” But he points out that Saddleback’s membership requirements include a pledge to tithe (give 10 percent of your income to the church) and to go on humanitarian mission trips.
And given he’s working with non-Christians for the sake of humanitarian work, those missions will be limited regarding how much actual ministry of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that they will do. Wouldn’t want to offend anybody you know.

Look, I'm not in the business of defending Rick Warren and I myself have some issues with PDL, but I am so tired of people coming to CD and criticizing other Christians when it appears their only ministry is trying to inflame people here and give other Christians a bad name.

I'm NOT here to FLAME anything. Just because I don't spend my waking moments, on here typing away, doesn't mean, I don't read some of the garbage that people believe and put out as Christian material. You can check were I go and it's not all over CD it's the Religion and Political forums, I'm not here for "HIGH POINTS".

Why do people criticize God's work?

Like I said, when it's RESPECTED CHRISTAN'S then you have to start looking and seeking for yourself to see what's out there. He is a fine man with the wrong message. Christians and Muslims will never believe in one God and it just insults Muslims for Christians to keep pushing their faith, only to find that there's an agenda behind the motive!! Sorry for the length of this you asked a lot of questions, that I felt were worth answering!!

[World Citizen]

I just went to Rick Warren's internet site to see what today's devotional is.

I found his First Steps to Spiritual Growth - "How to have Meaningful Time with God."
It is aimed at helping new christians and others who want to grow up in the Lord.
It's about discipline and committment.

Looks pretty solid to me...

Purpose Driven Life

[wildflower82]

Originally Posted by World Citizen

I just went to Rick Warren's internet site to see what today's devotional is.

I found his First Steps to Spiritual Growth - "How to have Meaningful Time with God."
It is aimed at helping new christians and others who want to grow up in the Lord.
It's about discipline and committment.

Looks pretty solid to me...

Purpose Driven Life

Thanks, World Citizen, I did look at it and yes it sounds solid and it is a great plan. But, then again, I could show you other Churches daily devotion and you would not like the source, because of some of their teachings.

With all due respect, I am not going to point to any one religion, what they do and say aboard is of big concern. It's the little ways they deceive the people into believing.

I guess Mega Churches are of concern, Paul was never popular, so what makes Christian Leaders, think that they have to entertain the people with all their needs to lead them to Christ.
The seeker friendly purpose driven church growth movement
It should be obvious that many fundamental Bible churches will find this whole church growth movement with its seeker type services to be repugnant. If we do not have enough problems now, once again a movement is going to cause a schism within the evangelicals. In order to get unbelievers to attend, many are building on a foundation that was not laid by the prophets and apostles. Some have moved away from true biblical teaching. This movement will be rejected by many as a compromise with the world system and even heretical.Adapting pop psychology concepts and self-esteem workshops into the church will conflict with what God said in the Bible. Those who are biblically literate will of course rebel against such teaching. It has already begun. This schism would not be necessary if Christians were reading God's word and not the word of Guru's and not measuring the value of the church by the numbers of its attendees.
I'm surely not trying to make enemies but you have to wonder this kind of ministry didn't work for Jim Baker and the likes. Guess we will see were this leads.
What I do find interesting most Christians believe in end times. Rick Warren claims we can all get along and worship the same God. Christians would like to get along, but know it's never going to happen so why does Rick Warren.
Click here to read this entire article.

Quotes by Rick Warren at Clinton's Global Initiative

"There are 600 million Buddhists in the world, there are 800 million Hindu's in the world, there are a billion Muslims in the world, and there are 2.3 billion Christians . . . And there is already an army ready to be mobilized, an army of compassion, in those villages. They're called churches or mosques or temples or synagogues."

"[W]e are not interested in simply wealth redistribution, we're interested in wealth creation, and there is no reason at all why those churches can't be involved; in fact, I would give you lots of examples
where they are involved in the kind of things that Muhammad is doing in creating wealth, in creating jobs, in training jobs, and things like that. And I hope we can discuss that."

Then why are the Palestine people so poor spiritually and financially!!!

[World Citizen]

I just have one question.

Have you ever or do you now teach or are you in any way in leadership in your church?

just curious....

Actually, I just re-read your post and I've got more to say.
I'll be really honest. I've not read all of the criticisms of Rick Warren and his church.
That is not my ministry.

I don't even want to have this discussion.

Issue closed for me.

[weatherologist]

I made thru 9 pages of this thread and the only thing that I have come away with is:

I have lost 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back

and...

I am glad to be Catholic.

Good night, people.

May you all find rest...

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