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What You Must Ignore To Be A Believer In Eternal Torment:
God Is Love
- you must believe God is only "love" at some times, but at other times He is only wrath and anger, but no love.
God's Mercy Endures Forever
- you must believe that at some point God's mercy ceases for some people and He never shows mercy again for all eternity.
God Will Not Retain His Anger Forever
- you must believe that God will retain His anger for all of eternity.
God Wills All Men To Be Saved
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and won't be done in regards to the salvation of men.
God Keeps No Record Of Wrongs
- you must believe that God will keep a record of wrongs for all eternity.
God Loves His Enemies
- you must believe that God will not love His enemies but will instead torment them for all eternity even though He commands US to love OUR enemies in order to be like Him.
Jesus Is The Saviour Of The World
- you must believe that Jesus is only the Saviour of some people.
If Jesus Is Lifted Up He Will Draw/ Drag Off/ Impel All Men To Himself
- you must believe that Jesus will only drag SOME men to Himself, but not all.
God Is Not Willing That Any Should Perish
- you must believe that God's will is not sovereign and some will perish because their will can override God's will....making them sovereign over God in matters eternal
Jesus Came To Seek & To Save That Which Was Lost
- you must believe that He came, went seeking and then still lost many/ most.....but did not save all that was lost, thereby failing in His mission to save that which was lost.
OK, I am really trying to understand your perspective but I am really having a difficult time when weighing it against the bible. Do you deny the existance of hell? How about evil? I don't understand how one can biblically deny that hell exists when Jesus speaks of hell, separation, and the possibility of not entering the kingdom of heaven. Mt. 7:21-23 ''Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!''
Hi supermom,
I don't deny the existence of evil. God created evil as well as good (see Isaiah 45:7).
Jesus spoke only of Gehenna. He did not speak King James English nor German of which Hell is of Germanic origin meaning "to cover."
The kingdom of heaven is not the kingdom IN heaven but is the kingdom which comes from heaven and is set up on the earth during both the 1000 year reign of Christ and the new earth. But those people will be cast out of the kingdom of 1000 years duration. Jesus, when He returns to this earth and sets up that kingdom will kick out of that kingdom all those evil doers. They must live among the nations outside of Israel. They are not sent to some mythological "hell."
God created sheol which is the grave or tomb in the Old Testament which is rendered "Hell" by some poor translations.
God created Gehenna in the New Testament which is a trash dump to the south of the city of Jerusalem for the purpose of burning the trash from that city. This too is mistranslated as "Hell" in some poor translations.
No one is tormented in Gehenna. The people cast into Gehenna are killed first and then their bodies are dumped therein during the 1000 year kingdom where the worms devour the cadavers or the fires burn it up.
For the New Earth, God created the lake of fire called the second death. It is death, not life of torture in flames. Our God is merciful, not diabolical.
None of the above "Hells" are eternal. Gehenna lasts for the thousand years. The second death lasts from the ending of the thousand years to the ending of the new earth age. Sheol, the grave or Hades, the grave in the New Testament is destroyed when the New Earth comes.
See, God is not the diabolical god of Christendom. All those judgments are temporary. God will save all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6) and is the Saviour of all mankind (1 Tim.4:10) these things charge and teach (1 Tim.4:11).
So what is the message you are trying to convey here? As someone who does not share your belief but trying to understand where you are coming from, here is what I've seen posted. 1. God is all love and we couldn't anger Him enough to be subject to His wrath because to show wrath would be characteristic of an unloving monster. 2. BUT- hell does exist and some will go there and be punished by a god who would never get angry but it won't be forever so it's not really that big of a deal- 1000 years isn't too bad. 3. Anyone who could believe that God could eternally damn a person does not know that God is love. They are the ones who will be lesser in heaven so they aren't ''invited to the picnic.'' This is how we will show them that God's love is not capable of shutting anyone out.
So what is the message you are trying to convey here? As someone who does not share your belief but trying to understand where you are coming from, here is what I've seen posted. 1. God is all love and we couldn't anger Him enough to be subject to His wrath because to show wrath would be characteristic of an unloving monster.
S. Mom: the essence of our Father is love. "God is love." This is not a characteristic of God, this is what our God is (along with Spirit, light and Fire.) Let me assure all that read these words....Love never fails! Never, never, never, Love (God) never fails!
Quote:
I have looked upon the face of Love Himself, and as a result all my earlier conceptions of the nature and character of God and His purposes for Mankind have been swallowed up. It feels almost as though I have seen a new God altogether, but I know of course, that the real fact is I have seen the True God in a new way—in the face of the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As a result, "old things have passed away and all things have become new. -Hannah Hurnard-
So what is the message you are trying to convey here? As someone who does not share your belief but trying to understand where you are coming from, here is what I've seen posted. 1. God is all love and we couldn't anger Him enough to be subject to His wrath because to show wrath would be characteristic of an unloving monster.
Right now, God is at peace with all mankind and is not reckoning their offenses to them and wants us, as ambasadors to entreat all mankind to be at peace with God (see 2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
When Christ comes back He will wield the sword. Judgment will begin at the House of God and He will kick out of Israel all offending and making snares (see Matt.13:41). Then He will judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation (Matt.25:31-46). Those nations will not go into "everlasting torment" but "age-lasting punishment." That is just and not diabolical.
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2. BUT- hell does exist and some will go there and be punished by a god who would never get angry but it won't be forever so it's not really that big of a deal- 1000 years isn't too bad.
No, Sheol does exist. The "Hell" which is Gehenna does not exist yet. It will be re-instituted when Christ sets up His 1000 year kingdom. Right now Gehenna is a lovely park you can visit to the south of Jerusalem.
Also, people are punished prior to having their dead bodies cast into Gehenna, not punished in Gehenna. It is rational and just to discipline an Israelite for something worthy of death then have their dead body cast into the trash dump called Gehenna to be disparaged by all seeing such a ghastly site. It is irrational to believe a loving God would eternally torture someone. It is not just to do that. God is a just God.
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3. Anyone who could believe that God could eternally damn a person does not know that God is love. They are the ones who will be lesser in heaven so they aren't ''invited to the picnic.'' This is how we will show them that God's love is not capable of shutting anyone out.
As to your number 3. Your first sentence is correct. I'm not sure about your second and third sentence.
All I know is the Christian concept of God is warped. According to them, God created someplace called "Hell" and created billions and billions and billions of humans. He chose some to believe and purposely blinded others so they would not and could not believe. And so these multiplied billions get eternally tortured in flaming fire because they were not chosen to believe? How diabolical is that?
Under the paradigm of the true God of the bible, yes, God chooses some who will believe and purposely blinds others so they cannot believe. But the purpose is not to fry them in some grand weenie roast for eternity. He tortures no humans in literal fire.
"The question of all questions is essentially this: can evil finally triumph over Good?" - an excellent question, Birdy.
Some years ago, I stumbled across the theology of Christian Universalism, (I was actually studying about tithing at the time, and had never even heard of such a teaching). After months of studying, thinking, and praying about it, (things that most people, who go against traditional Christian teachings, are accused of not doing), one of the strongest arguments against eternal hell/torture was that it makes God a failure. Saving only a small remnant of mankind certainly is not a triumph.
In really giving serious consideration to this notion of eternal hell, (something I had been taught all my life), I realized that it's extremely awkward for one to say, "God loves you", in the same breath as saying, "if you don't believe this, God will fry you for eternity". It doesn't make sense to me, (it actually didn't even as a kid, but like most, I tried valiantly to believe it, and ignore my gut, that something was wrong with this teaching).
In traditional Christianity, the only good news, the only hope is for those who are saved, in this short life. So, for the ET Christian, if their "Aunt Susan", or "Grandpa", or "Cousin Joe" never became a believer, (they just weren't smart enough, you know), then the only hope one is left with is, "oh, perhaps they accepted Jesus, just before they died". What kind of hope is that?! What utter nonsense to think that the Creator of the universe couldn't come up with a better plan than that!
I see a lot of talk about free will, and such-like, and that's all well and good, up to a point, in the small details, if you will, (rather like letting your child decide if they want to wear a coat, or not, when it's chilly outside). However, we as mortal parents, have sense enough to know that our children will do dangerous, foolish things, such as running into a busy street if we do not constrain them. We are interfering with their "free will", but it keeps them from getting killed. They may kick and scream initially, but we don't let go of them, just because they want to go. We don't throw them under the tires of an 18-wheeler, repeatedly, as a punishment for wanting to disobey us, and to go into the street. If we have sense enough, (not to mention enough love), to interfere with our children's free will, for their own good, what in the world makes us think that God would act any differently, particularly where it concerns eternity? That's a "hell" of a long time, if you will excuse the wording. No, thank-you. I'll not go back to such a hideous teaching about our Creator.
He also chose who would be saved before they were even born. He gave faith to those chosen so they could believe. The others He blinded, hardened their hearts and stopped up their ears and had His Son talk to them in parables do they could not understand so they would not be saved.
That's only true if you are a Calvinist....it wasn't until just the past few days that I've seen how Universalism is the next step from Calvinism.
Pretty wild stuff.
For your sake, I hope you are correct.....but I don't believe you are.
"The question of all questions is essentially this: can evil finally triumph over Good?" - an excellent question, Birdy.
Some years ago, I stumbled across the theology of Christian Universalism, (I was actually studying about tithing at the time, and had never even heard of such a teaching). After months of studying, thinking, and praying about it, (things that most people, who go against traditional Christian teachings, are accused of not doing), one of the strongest arguments against eternal hell/torture was that it makes God a failure. Saving only a small remnant of mankind certainly is not a triumph.
How is what I choose to except or deny a reflection on God?
How is it that because I reject the things God has done to show me He loves me and show me He's real, that it makes HIM a reflection?
Why is God's 'success' or 'failure' based on His creation? He IS GOD. There is no success or failure....HE JUST IS!
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Originally Posted by CelticLady1
In really giving serious consideration to this notion of eternal hell, (something I had been taught all my life), I realized that it's extremely awkward for one to say, "God loves you", in the same breath as saying, "if you don't believe this, God will fry you for eternity". It doesn't make sense to me, (it actually didn't even as a kid, but like most, I tried valiantly to believe it, and ignore my gut, that something was wrong with this teaching).
In traditional Christianity, the only good news, the only hope is for those who are saved, in this short life. So, for the ET Christian, if their "Aunt Susan", or "Grandpa", or "Cousin Joe" never became a believer, (they just weren't smart enough, you know), then the only hope one is left with is, "oh, perhaps they accepted Jesus, just before they died". What kind of hope is that?! What utter nonsense to think that the Creator of the universe couldn't come up with a better plan than that!
So you choose the alternative and say 'Ya know, thank goodness it didn't matter if Aunt Susan believed Christ was her Savior. It doesn't matter that she railed against the 'myth of jesus' her entire life and hated Christ and Christians and the church and molested me when I was a child and never felt sorry for it or asked for forgiveness. Thank goodness good ole God's gonna drag her kicking in screaming into Heaven to be waiting there when everyone else get's there. '
No, sorry, that's what makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticLady1
I see a lot of talk about free will, and such-like, and that's all well and good, up to a point, in the small details, if you will, (rather like letting your child decide if they want to wear a coat, or not, when it's chilly outside). However, we as mortal parents, have sense enough to know that our children will do dangerous, foolish things, such as running into a busy street if we do not constrain them. We are interfering with their "free will", but it keeps them from getting killed. They may kick and scream initially, but we don't let go of them, just because they want to go. We don't throw them under the tires of an 18-wheeler, repeatedly, as a punishment for wanting to disobey us, and to go into the street. If we have sense enough, (not to mention enough love), to interfere with our children's free will, for their own good, what in the world makes us think that God would act any differently, particularly where it concerns eternity? That's a "hell" of a long time, if you will excuse the wording. No, thank-you. I'll not go back to such a hideous teaching about our Creator.
No free-will?
You sure?
Can you choose to respond to this post or not? Think carefully.
That's only true if you are a Calvinist....it wasn't until just the past few days that I've seen how Universalism is the next step from Calvinism.
There is little that the five points of raw Calvanism (T.U.L.I.P.) and the Restitution of all things have similarity.
That God's election is a doctrine clearly revealed in Scripture, no impartial reader can doubt: although unfortunately, around few subjects has the battle of controversy been so furiously waged. One party has, in affirming God's election - which is true, so affirmed it as to make Him into an arbitrary and cruel tyrant - which is false. But the truer and deeper views of God's plan of mercy through Jesus Christ - now in the ascendant I trust - teach us to affirm distinctly the doctrine of the divine election of "the few :" and just because we so affirm it, to connect with it purposes of universal mercy. For what is the true end and meaning of God's election?
The elect, are chosen, not for themselves only, but for the sake of others. They are "elect," not merely to be blessed, but to be a source of blessing. It is not merely with the paltry object of saving a few, while the vast majority perish, that God elects; it is with a purpose of mercy to all; it is by "the few" to save "the many ;" by the elect to save the world.
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), then the only hope one is left with is, "oh, perhaps they accepted Jesus, just before they died". What kind of hope is that?! What utter nonsense to think that the Creator of the universe couldn't come up with a better plan than that! 
No, thank-you. I'll not go back to such a hideous teaching about our Creator.
