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But how am I and a billion other Christians supposed to understand that, sven? We're not Greek scholars. We're just reading what the modern-day theologians throw at us as the "Divinely-inspired Word of God."
I don't think everyone is supposed to understand it in this age. What causes all the fighting is everyone assumes if you understand the "wrong" thing, you doomed for eternity. So everyone MUST take the position that THEY are right and everyone else is wrong so that they don't doom themselves by their own belief.
But if we look at it from the big picture, why would God leave the fate of his whole creation to be determined by what they believe (based off of poorly translated scriptures and theologians), when it isn't exactly clear, and no one can even agree on the basics? If that is true, then we are all doomed!
On the subject of universalism, there is something I realized, the discussions are always the same, the verses, the arguments are always the same.
For example, Matthew 25:46 vs. Colossians 1:20 etc…
Universal reconciliation can’t be refuted without scriptural contradictions or at least rational contradictions, one might live with that but a contradictive exegesis of the word of God can’t be satisfying and is hardly convincing when talking with unbelievers, ever wondered why so many want to have nothing to do with nominal Christendom? ("For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written." Romans 2:24)
There have dozen if not hundreds articles been written on the Greek terms eis ton aiôna (to eternity, infinity, forever ???), aiônios (everlasting, eternal, endless ???).
But I guess few who reject universalism have actually made the effort and tried to check it on their own; of course one can claim everything, to translate aiônios with eonian rather than with eternal alone does not prove anything, a single translation alone is also no authority, on the other hand, majority and tradition aren’t an argument either.
However those who claim these words mean endless should check it on their own if their claims are actually true, who believes aiônios means endless or eternal in its modern sense should look at Romans 16:25, Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9, Philemon 15 in the Greek text of the New Testament (more than 3 witnesses) and compare it with the Strong numbers, if this definitions can be right (Strong’s Number 166), who believes eis ton aiôna means for eternity shall look at Deuteronomy 15:17, 1 Samuel 27:12, Psalm 73:12, Micah 4:5 in the Septuagint Greek text (more than 3 witnesses, see Deuteronomy 19:15).
Knowing Greek does not turn anybody in a universalist, I will give an example: I’m German, I would say my English is pretty good, I came to the conclusion that a good translation for aiônios might be perpetual, I don’t understand perpetual as endless according to the definitions given in a dictionary. However some native English speakers might understand perpetual as a synonym of everlasting.
The point is, my understanding what perpetual means does not affect my ability of speaking English, it doesn’t make it better or worse. So it is with Greek, I like the Darby translation, I think it’s a pretty literal translation, I think J.N. Darby was a good Greek scholar, though he translated aiônios as eternal on the authority of some dictionaries and Plato, if I assume he was wrong, which I do, it would not undermine his scholarliness as he was no native speaker and relied on his sources as I do on the word perpetual, on the other hand, being a good Greek scholar makes him in no way to an authority, or any other. I think you can get a Greek professor who supports any position concerning this topic; I guess opinions vary among them as much as among religious people.
I thought in the beginning men should be glad that at least the possibility would exist that all men will be saved, however I found out, that quite the opposite seems to be true; I was 19 when I first got to knew that the majority Christians believe in everlasting torment for all unbelievers and was shocked, I could and did never believe that the bible teach such thing or that Jesus would torture billions of people in infinity, too unimaginable this thought.
All I can is to wonder about the people who call themself Christians and men in general, that men can accept such ideas and do not break and despair under this burden, but men care only about themself, and hell, it are the others.
Some who believed in universalism, said it's not wise to teach it open, maybe there were right.
Do not give holy things to dogs. Do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they might walk all over them. Then they might turn around and tear you to pieces. (Matthew 7:6)
I think I won't contribute longer to this forum, there are tons of articles in English language, I will concentrate in future to make German studies, rather then to post in English forums and I realized it's fruitless and vain to teach universalism to those who don't want it to be true, it is good to comfort those who break under the traditional doctrines, but I also realized, many people do not believe in their heart, what they claim to believe to appear orthodox.
One should not teach universalism with force to ignorant people, this were my thoughts I wanted to share.
Maybe some of my words appear harsh, but I just wonder how cold blooded many men can be and what men can believe...
Sven ... I understand how you feel. I get frustrated all the time. AS a matter of fact i have never been so frustrated as a Christian before, or by any other topic than the topic of eternal damnation. I believe that the doctrine Eternal Torture is monstrous. I believe that many people who believe in ET are monsters. When Hitler murder and tortures millions hes a monster, but according to these so called Christians when God does it its OK and he is still he a loving father who loves every0one even though his actions are elitist and and barbaric. Many of these Christians seem to revel in the thought of others suffer unimaginable pain for an eternity without end. Its as if the thought makes them feel better about themselves and their false religion. But, i love these people anyway and feel very sorry for them (i used to be that way also until the put me in a position of having to identify with the lost in the world, though i never really was able to fully accept eternal torture even then), and their pathetic lives and pathetic isolationist ideas. I also feel its necessary, not to convince these people whom i believe many of them to be blinded by demonic influences in their lives, but to provide the alternative understanding of scripture which is the original gospel taught and preached for centuries after Christ. Someone has represent the truth as it was known in the early church. If I don't hear from you any more here of CD, i want to say i have been blessed by you rational and friendly approach in the face of so much irrational and hateful condemnation. I think God for people like you and my other friends who fight for the truth here on CD, and i will miss you friend and brother if and when you leave.
But MAJOR doctrinal differences like the rapture and UR should not be in any text that purports to be "Divinely inspired" They cannot co-exist. A document that derives from Divine inspiration,by God's own Perfect Nature, cannot cause confusion.
You won't like these answers.... but I don't think the scriptures agree with your thesis above.
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Matthews 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
And don't get me wrong... I believe we are all subject to both the positive and negative application of these scriptures. I believe all eyes will be opened and blessed at God's appointed time, just as all of us have at times had our hearts waxed gross so as to see and not preceive, to hear and not hear.
You won't like these answer but I don't think the scriptures agree with your thesis above.
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Matthews 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Exactly. God never intended for everyone to understand in this age. Only few are chosen. Few understand.
But if we look at it from the big picture, why would God leave the fate of his whole creation to be determined by what they believe (based off of poorly translated scriptures and theologians), when it isn't exactly clear, and no one can even agree on the basics? If that is true, then we are all doomed!
"Present your case," says the LORD. Set forth your arguments," says Jacob's King."
Do you think in judgement day we will be able to say before the Lord, "Lord, this is what I read in the Bible; this is what I was taught. How did I know it was contrary to Your Holy Word? Do I deserve punishment when I sincerely thought this was what You wanted me to believe?"
To me its obvious. Now mind you, i didn't say everyone who believes it(ET), i said many. I understand that most who believe in ET are simply brain washed, like Germany during the third reich, who believed it was okay not only to invade other countries in an attempt to spread their empire, but to torture and kill millions of people for experimentation or purely out of elitist beliefs that put certain types of people on the fringes of society in the position of animals and marginalized their humanity. I believe the same thing is being done in Christianity today, and has been going on for 1400 years now. To the point were a massive portion of Christians today are either cowards and believe because they fear torture in the afterlife, or believe because they are bullies and think it makes them better then people who don't believe the same way they do. I have been dealing with bullies and thieves all my life. I have been shot at, stabbed in the back, beaten, broken, extorted and cast out all my life by people. And this is what i see happening largely in Christendom today on a spiritual level who claim to believe in a God of love. Many Christian have never suffered severe pain at the hands of others in this life, yet they are so ready to see the vast majority of the world tortured in the cosmic basement of hell for an eternity and they act like its a good thing. Like somehow this Glorifies God ... If this is not a monstrous concept what is? At least being tortured in this life has an end. Hitler and Stalin and all the other maniacs throughout time have nothing on God if the teaching of ETERNAL TORTURE is true, yet this seems to escape many Christian minds and they act like it is the mind of God and that we just cant understand his magnificent ways of torture and pain. Why do you think Bush was able to get away with torturing so many "terrorists" in the open and Christian Americans when asked if torture was okay said they thought it was? Is this not a sign of national spiritual corruption? I'm sorry, but i call a spade a spade friend. And if my words upset some people, they should. Its hard to look at the monster in the mirror ... But that is what we are supposed to do. The bible teaches us to love and forgive without end, but then the organized church tells us God is opposite these teachings, that he is a despot that tells us to do as he says and not as he does. I'm personally fed up with the hypocrisy ... But i will continue to struggle. I believe that even the most diabolical soul has value and that one day even those souls will glorify God and praise the name of Jesus. But i will not wear kid gloves just to be politically correct. Im not going to single anyone out, but i will generalize in order to make my point which i believe is long over due.
"Present your case," says the LORD. Set forth your arguments," says Jacob's King."
Do you think in judgement day we will be able to say before the Lord, "Lord, this is what I read in the Bible; this is what I was taught. How did I know it was contrary to Your Holy Word? Do I deserve punishment when I sincerely thought this was what You wanted me to believe?"
It depends on the attitude of your heart. Yes that is what a lot will be saying - the beast deceives the whole world - that is not limited to non christians.
We are told that Judgement will be on deeds and on the intent of your heart, if you meant evil, you will be judged for that evil - not unending torture.
The whole of this passage needs to go together
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Christians seem to think that non christians can do no right in Gods eyes and God will overlook any evil that is done by christians because Jesus died for them.
But we are told that God will not justify the wicked Exo 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
- we are to follow Jesus example and be holy as he (God) is holy.
Judgement is on works and attitudes
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