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I'm neither! I believe in the God of Revelation 20 and 2 Peter 3! After 300+ readings of the NT, I haven't found anything there that makes me want to reinvent it. At any rate, do you think there might be more than the two options that you offer available?
So what you have said then is that you are neither of those which means that you believe the opposite since there is only such which is:
You believe God desires to save all and that God is ABLE to save all.
That is what I believe also. I'm a universalist.
No there is no other options to those that believe in Eternal Torment, they will either believe that God is unwilling or unable to save EVERYONE.
I'm neither! I believe in the God of Revelation 20 and 2 Peter 3! After 300+ readings of the NT, I haven't found anything there that makes me want to reinvent it. At any rate, do you think there might be more than the two options that you offer available?
There is only one point and purpose themed throughout the written word and that is God reconciling mankind back to Himself through His son Jesus Christ.
I see it in every verse , even in the lake of fire ,even in His judgements, even in plucking out your own eye, even in the wages of sin, even in the fall of man , even in the rejection of His son.
Our God is more able and more willing than our puny carnal minds can comprehend.
He makes a way where there is no other way.
He is the wonderful risen Savior our Lord Jesus Christ . Nothing can stand in the way of His purpose to reconcile mankind back to Himself . Blessed be His name.
So what you have said then is that you are neither of those which means that you believe the opposite since there is only such which is:
You believe God desires to save all and that God is ABLE to save all.
That is what I believe also. I'm a universalist.
No there is no other options to those that believe in Eternal Torment, they will either believe that God is unwilling or unable to save EVERYONE.
Paul
No, that is not what I believe. I'm not a universalist. I'm just a Bible believer. I believe that God desires to save all (2 Pet 3:9), Christ is Able to save all who come to God through him (Hebrews 7:25), but God will NOT save those who are disobedient. (Ephesians 5:5-7)
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
This passage is very clear, isn't it? Read it in any translation you like. But it cannot be anything but what it is. In fact, it makes the point that we should NOT misinterpret its very clear meaning, or allow others mislead us with empty words. According to this passage, you are on very dangerous ground.
Now, I can deluge you with scripture verses, but I would prefer you just study the Bible for yourself, and preferably in at least three translations. Set aside the denominational labels, and just read the Bible for yourself. It is marvelously simple, no matter how much we often try to complicate it.
No, that is not what I believe. I'm not a universalist. I'm just a Bible believer. I believe that God desires to save all (2 Pet 3:9), Christ is Able to save all who come to God through him (Hebrews 7:25), but God will NOT save those who are disobedient. (Ephesians 5:5-7)
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
This passage is very clear, isn't it? Read it in any translation you like. But it cannot be anything but what it is. In fact, it makes the point that we should NOT misinterpret its very clear meaning, or allow others mislead us with empty words. According to this passage, you are on very dangerous ground.
Now, I can deluge you with scripture verses, but I would prefer you just study the Bible for yourself, and preferably in at least three translations. Set aside the denominational labels, and just read the Bible for yourself. It is marvelously simple, no matter how much we often try to complicate it.
Then you believe that God is not willing to save all for you said you don't believe that God is willing to save those that are disobedient. Just as I said if you believe in Eternal torment then one of those positions is going to apply to you and such is the case with you.
Now, I believe IF a baby is non elect, and God does condemn them to hell, they will not be a baby, but miraculosly changed unto adulthood for their punishment as a sinner, and of course thei punishment will not be as severe as a non elect who spent 70 - 80 years accumalating guilt against God
Wow. Why not just read the Bible? The answers are there. There are no degrees of punishment for the damned. One does not "accumulate guilt" towards length of punishment. It's all in the Lake of Fire. It's all eternal.
Babies are either resurrected in the first or second resurrection. The Bible does not elaborate on the issue of babies. But it's a process of elimination. If babies are resurrected in the first resurrection, then they have eternal life. If they are resurrected in the second resurrection, then they are judged by their works, according to Revelation 20:
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
I would say that its a safe assumption that babies have never violated the law of God and will be found in the Book of Life, if indeed they do appear in the second resurrection and not the first. I however, suspect they appear in the first and are given glorified bodies. On one hand, babies are pure in thought and deed, if not in nature. On the other hand, they have never accepted Christ per se, as far as we understand, and it would indicate they need to pass before the final judgement.
Then you believe that God is not willing to save all for you said you don't believe that God is willing to save those that are disobedient. Just as I said if you believe in Eternal torment then one of those positions is going to apply to you and such is the case with you.
Paul
I gave you three scriptural references for my three point reply, Paul. What do those references say? Those three references answer your question. Willing to save all, but will not save all due to their disobedience.
There is only one way to God, Paul. And that is through Jesus.
I gave you three scriptural references for my three point reply, Paul. What do those references say? Those three references answer your question. Willing to save all, but will not save all due to their disobedience.
There is only one way to God, Paul. And that is through Jesus.
None of those references you gave said that God will not save some. Let me repeat that. None of those references (verses) that you gave said that God will not save any part of humanity in any manner or form. Here is the verses from Ephesians:
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
All these say is that sinners don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that we are not to have fellowship with those that are practicing those sins.
None of those references you gave said that God will not save some. Let me repeat that. None of those references (verses) that you gave said that God will not save any part of humanity in any manner or form. Here is the verses from Ephesians:
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
All these say is that sinners don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that we are not to have fellowship with those that are practicing those sins.
It says nothing about not saving these people.
Paul
Not all the three references I provided were intended to illustrate that God will not save some people, Paul. Rather, they illustrated each point as I listed them. Willing, Able, But not going to for the disobedient.
Regarding Ephesians, the inheritance spoken of in the Kingdom of Christ and God, is given only to the saved, Paul. There will be no unsaved people in the Kingdom. No idolator has an inheritance in it. That comes with salvation only. Therefore, under those circumstances, one cannot but come to the realization that not everyone will be saved.
I can give you a laundry list of verses, but here's John Chapter 3:
14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Jesus is lifted up so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. This is the essence of what it means to be "saved." To believe results in "not perishing." The opposite results in condemnation, the second death. You basically have to eliminate at least half the NT to support your view. At least half.
[quote=Led Zeppelin;10041940] But not going to for the disobedient.[quote]
Well how does that statement line up with this
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.Romans 11 verse 32.
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