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You completely missed the "covenantal" aspect of verses you provided. Your wordproofing again to support your views. Your arguement has no ground or legs.......Covenant!
Secondly, who makes your spirit alive?
What makes your spirit dead?
You are trying to philosophize this concept when the only thing you should be doing in reagrds to anything that is Biblical, is not to think, but to read what the scripture says. And take it as truth. Believe.
Sciota,
Respectfully, your ideas on the "covenantal" aspect of verses just boggles my mind. I can't make heads or tails of it... The OC and NC that you hold are completely foreign to me... because I HAVE read it!
As for the spirit... I think you need to realize that your concept of spirit, soul, and body comes straight from PLATO.. a great philosopher...
In studying Aristotle, Plato, and their contemporaries it is obvious to me that it is that sort of "afterlife philosophy" that is the foundation for Calvin's teachings... But that is just my opinion... Perhaps you see this 'philosophy' you have of the three-fold man as having come from the bible... but it is not so. In reading the bible it is quite clear that soul is SPIRIT + BODY...
So as to your question... it is not the spirit that is dead it is the MIND controlled by sin that is dead... and the MIND that is controlled by the spirit that is alive.
If I read the bible the way you do I would face too many contradictions. again....IMO.
Considering the definition of philosophy... how can you describe an afterlife and yet tell others to stay away from philosophy. How can you say that the spirit can be dead when you really have no concept of the spirit in the first place. God IS spirit... How can a spirit die? If so then God is susceptible to dying. What you are doing here is .... PHILOSOPHIZING!
Anytime you think through the wisdom of something you are philosophizing.
“A man may imagine things that are false,
But he can only understand things that are true.
For if the things be false,
The apprehension of them is not understanding.”
Sir Isaac Newton
English philosopher, physicist, mathematician, astronomer, & inventor
December 25, 1642 – March 20, 1727
We owe a lot to those evil philosophers....
Last edited by katjonjj; 04-12-2010 at 05:10 PM..
Reason: Changed bold text to normal text...
Actually it isn't. What is the scripture is fulfilled and complete in Christ.
Theology and Philosophy do not mix at all. Once you do, you have corrupt doctrines of the Word of God., hence the gnostics since that time till now. Man is prideful, when he should be humble, as you should. The Text is enough. It has nothing to do with ignorance, but what is complete.
Why add to the complete work? Don't dare!
Definition of philosophy:
a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means : an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs
a system of philosophical concepts : a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thought <the philosophy of war> : the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group.
Theology: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially the study of God and of God's relation to the world.
(Definitions from Merriam-webster dictionary online)
So really since the existence of God/heaven/hell...etc. is chiefly speculative rather than observational then Theology itself is a PHILOSOPHY.
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You are incapable of entering into the mind of God, as He is pure and YOU are not, and never will be in your Adamic state. It is your spirit which is unblemished, ONLY because of YOUR profession in faith and Christ atoning blood that clears you of your sins, is it alive in Christ. You are dead if not.
Do you believe the spirit can die? Do you believe the spirit has the same characteristics as the body? If these are connected then I can see what you are saying...
I believe that the spirit and mind are at war, the mind is controlled by the body naturally (neurons, nerves...etc) but if the spirit controls the body then you have achieved Christ-likeness. Or are you not separating the mind and spirit?
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To even remotely think that you can be inside God's head, is none other than taking a bite of the tree once again.
I truly don't believe God has a head...
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This has nothing to do with blind faith, or any other term those tend to impose on this theology, but only that which is in scripture, and God seeks in every living soul, and that is TRUST. TRUST Him in all things.
People trusted David Koresh too.... that was a hard learned lesson in proper theology wasn't it? Perhaps if they had not just trusted but philosophized more they would not have trusted Mr. Koresh so completely.
Kat, it appears you put more trust in Plato and others against God's Holy Word. The difference what I see with UR is that they impose outside philosophical resources onto the scripture for revelation. That is my point. The scripture is constant, and it has a message, and that message, must be compared with itself.
None other.
God's Holy Word is about His Covenant with Israel. First with Adam to Seth to Noah, then Abraham to Moses, and Moses to Christ, and Christ to whom, those who trust in Christ, who is God, the Savior. No trust, not Israel. I am an Israelite. If you are a Christian, so are you. The Dalai Lama is not an Israelite. Capice?
Kat, it appears you put more trust in Plato and others against God's Holy Word. The difference what I see with UR is that they impose outside philosophical resources onto the scripture for revelation. That is my point. The scripture is constant, and it has a message, and that message, must be compared with itself.
None other.
Yet that is what I feel you are doing, as I said above. It is Aristotle that Calvin drew his own philosophy from. It is the same philosophers by which the trinity came into being. These church fathers had remnants of those very philosophers in everything they thought and did... HOWEVER, they were primitive in thinking because they didn't have all the information we has gathered since. Here is a good article about what I am saying: John Calvin’s Aristotelean Cosmology « Epistole
The philosophers made great strides in understanding what we now know, but they did not have all the information... consider the earth is flat concept.. that changed and other things will too. This idea that man is made up of three parts comes from those same philosophers who named those parts and yet today we understand that hormones, diseases, and other various factors actually affect us more than if we had three parts.
All I am saying (long-winded though it may be) is that I feel that it is YOU who is ignoring that the bible states there are two parts to man - body and spirit which makes a living soul.
God's Holy Word is about His Covenant with Israel. First with Adam to Seth to Noah, then Abraham to Moses, and Moses to Christ, and Christ to whom, those who trust in Christ, who is God, the Savior. No trust, not Israel. I am an Israelite. If you are a Christian, so are you. The Dalai Lama is not an Israelite. Capice?
I understand you think as you do. I don't understand WHY you think as you do. A covenant according to Easton's Bible Dictionary is a contract or agreement between two parties.
However...your understanding (and mine) are inherently flawed as a contract is usually an agreement by two parties who both have something to give and something to receive.
A covenant is not: Do this or die. That would not qualify as a covenant in my mind. The old testament is full of various covenants as you so succinctly pointed out above. Yet the NEW covenant was only one. An everlasting and unbreakable one.
God's covenant with man has never changed. It has always been: Do what is right and you will live. Do what is wrong and you will die. A simple consequences of your actions statement yet we sometimes think that if we do what is right then we will always live.. so IMO the NEW covenant did not change, but was elaborated on. God elaborated on what he expected. God wants all men (and women) to love one another and in doing so do what is right so they will live.
Live and die here are much like: Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Life/prosperity or death/adversity
We know by just living on earth that doing good does not always produce life... many good people die. We also know that doing bad does not always produce death as many bad people live. The point is that you WILL have a life of prosperity if you do what is right because you love others. Can you imagine a murder taking place if all people loved their neighbor as themselves? Talk about peace on earth... right?
Salvation in the New Covenant is not about a special group of people but about all people. By saying that in Adam ALL DIE it is a reference that all people are inevitably sinners. We can't seem to help sinning. But is the NC exclusive? or was God's purpose to condemn those who did what was right without love for their fellow man (Jesus healing on the sabbath for example) saying that even though they followed the law they still may not see life. So doing GOOD (following the law) without love is also useless.
In your mind you think one must sign on the dotted line in a covenant with God... In my mind you agree to the covenant by loving your neighbor as yourself.
We should agree to disagree before I write a book.
If you really want to get into it the whole NT is about the transition from Judaism to Christ's gospel (Christianity) Therefore none of it can apply to us who are well after the fact. Believing in something NEW and UNSEEN is important when you are trying to establish a NEW religion...especially when it is an offshoot of another established religion.....
Do you believe that Christ came to start a new religion? Basically everything Paul and the other NT writers were saying coincided perfectly with what was going on in the OT. There's no new religion, just a faith that is now coming into its completion. Christ was foretold long before He walked the earth, there is nothing new being brought in, just the fulfillment of what was prophesied. In the case of Romans, Paul highlights the completion of God's work by showing that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, which he noted in Galations was designed to kill us so that Christ could redeem us. The Jews at this time had a hard time understanding the significance of the cross, thus they needed to be taught it's significance and how things have changed. What you are trying to suggest is that God is justifying everyone in this passage, when He is only showing that we are no longer bound to the Law for Christ has completed that work in us.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
But saved from what? If they believed Jesus and what he said then they would not die in Jerusalem (because as we know now, it was destroyed)... but does belief in Christ cause you to go to an afterlife of good rather than bad?.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you are asking, but I'll give it a shot. Christ saved us from sin and the bondage that brings death to our lives; furthermore, because He has completed all things in us and made us the righteousness of God, then we can come into the presence of the Father and spend eternity with Him. However, as you may have assumed, I am speaking of those who believe in His sacrifice and accept the Lordship of God. Basically, belief in Christ does lead you to a "afterlife of good". In regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, I don't have a clue where that is tying in right now. You mind elaborating some for me, I would appreciate it.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
Really the NT and OT talk very little about any afterlife. So while I may agree with the stance you are taking on such verses I don't think you can say that one must believe in Christ in order to take part in promises established from the beginning (before Christ)... The disciples (like Abraham) had hope in salvation, they had faith that salvation would be realized once Christ returned... but they did not see salvation.....everyone of them died prior to except John...the one standing there that did not taste of death before these things came about.
But this may be worthy of another thread and not so much applicable to thus one...
This thread was about the shepherd that saves 100%.
I have to disagree. First off, where are you getting the notion that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc's faith was in God providing the means of salvation later on and that they never saw salvation? Didn't Jesus once rebuke the Pharisees saying that God is the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and not was. The way Jesus makes it sound, God did bring them salvation for they are alive and with Him now. Beyond that, ur right, this would be an interesting thread to start up and discuss for another time.
You bring up points that have nothing to do with scripture in regards to philosophy. I am not comparing them. Is that what you want to do? Covenants, IMO, have various meaning depending on the party of course, but that again is philosophy. What is the covenant in scripture? That is what you should be asking. Not telling yourself this:
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That would not qualify as a covenant in my mind.
It has nothing to do with what your mind thinks, it is what God says. I understand your "Kingdom now" theology that is only applicable in the tangible world, when I see this:
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We know by just living on earth that doing good does not always produce life... many good people die. We also know that doing bad does not always produce death as many bad people live. The point is that you WILL have a life of prosperity if you do what is right because you love others. Can you imagine a murder taking place if all people loved their neighbor as themselves? Talk about peace on earth... right?
....but this is where you error I believe. Correct me if I am wrong. You forget that the kingdom is of the spirit, in Heaven, AND on Earth, another dimension where our souls are resurrected in Christ, not destined for death, for those who are not resurrected.....NOW......in Christ. When you die, without Christ, you die. The resurrection in Christ occurs NOW, in this life, upon profession....i.e. natural body sown - put to death (this is symbolic of BEING PUT TO DEATH with Christ at the moment of profession of your faith in Him) Then you are RAISED into life with Christ. That is what 1 Corinthians is about...NOT a physical resurrection, but a SPIRITUAL one.
Our souls receive not death, but life, in a NEW BODY.
The "lake of fire" as used in Revelation is not a place of the annihilation of created beings either. John's usage is the state of covenantal death, separation and condemnation before God. That is, to be "in Christ" and "in the New Covenant" is to be "in the New Jerusalem" (Heb 12:18,22-24; Gal 4:24-26); to be "outside of Christ" and "outside of the covenant" is to be "judged" and under condemnation (John 3:18-21) even under the same condemnation of satan and his angels.
Kingdom now, always on Earth AS it is in HEAVEN. Two dimensions, one city.
There is no middle ground before God - John 3:18-20, 12:46; Lk 1:78-79; John 1:5; Acts 26:18; Col 1:13; Eph 5:8; 1 Pet 2:9; 1 Jn 2:9-11
.....those who come out of judgment and darkness and into the light of Christ and New Jerusalem, of course, is accomplished only through the conversion into the covenant with God, and pertains only to those who are being sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Heb 10:14; Rom 10:9) and by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:9-11).
Do you believe that Christ came to start a new religion? Basically everything Paul and the other NT writers were saying coincided perfectly with what was going on in the OT. There's no new religion, just a faith that is now coming into its completion. Christ was foretold long before He walked the earth, there is nothing new being brought in, just the fulfillment of what was prophesied. In the case of Romans, Paul highlights the completion of God's work by showing that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, which he noted in Galations was designed to kill us so that Christ could redeem us. The Jews at this time had a hard time understanding the significance of the cross, thus they needed to be taught it's significance and how things have changed. What you are trying to suggest is that God is justifying everyone in this passage, when He is only showing that we are no longer bound to the Law for Christ has completed that work in us.
"New religion" as in when you buy a used car and call it your NEW car...
Who is not bound to the law? He was telling Jews that while they followed the law they neglected their fellow man and so their following the law would not save them....
Christ came to set the captives of the Law (Judaism) free from bondage.
Physical Israel was set free from Egypt as a shadow of Spiritual Israel (held captive by the Law) being set free from the Law of sin and death.
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I'm not quite sure I understand what you are asking, but I'll give it a shot. Christ saved us from sin and the bondage that brings death to our lives; furthermore, because He has completed all things in us and made us the righteousness of God, then we can come into the presence of the Father and spend eternity with Him. However, as you may have assumed, I am speaking of those who believe in His sacrifice and accept the Lordship of God. Basically, belief in Christ does lead you to a "afterlife of good". In regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, I don't have a clue where that is tying in right now. You mind elaborating some for me, I would appreciate it.
Were you ever in bondage to the Law? We are reading a compilation of stories and letters written by and to Jews. They were the focus.
Let me ask you this. If there were 70 people taken captive in war by the enemy and the enemy asked one to give their life to set the other 70 free... do you think any one of the 69 who didn't believe it would be able to stay captive? or if the enemy killed the 1 and didn't release all 69 would the enemy be truthful?
The Law held people captive by pointing out their sin because once you know what sin is you can try to rationalize what crime you commit such as not loving your neighbor (not specifically stated in the Law) however if Jesus died to set the captive free (the ungodly which included the orthodox Jews at the time) then how is it that you think one must believe this happened in order for it to be affective? Just like the 1 captive above who gave his life in exchange for the 69 in the story above... if all captives are not released then doesn't that make God a liar?
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Did God reconcile ALL things to himself through Christ? or just believing things? The enmity was established through Adam and reconciled through Christ.
Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
The Law was the yoke... right?
Acts 15:11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
The "our fathers" were saved through grace just as the disciples were...
Doesn't that make sense to you that grace has always been there but this 'new' religion brought to light the Law of grace to replace the Law of sin and death? Can this only apply to those who believe in the same afterlife you do? If so then none of the first century apostles are saved because they didn't believe in the same afterlife you do... IMO
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I have to disagree. First off, where are you getting the notion that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc's faith was in God providing the means of salvation later on and that they never saw salvation? Didn't Jesus once rebuke the Pharisees saying that God is the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and not was. The way Jesus makes it sound, God did bring them salvation for they are alive and with Him now. Beyond that, ur right, this would be an interesting thread to start up and discuss for another time.
Hebrews 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
They had faith in what was to come... You will have to show me where you see that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for the "WAS the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, rather than the IS because I can't find it.
I really can't say if those three are with God right now.. I would assume they are but in the OT they were said to be in Sheol (or the grave), so I guess we won't know until we die.
Perhaps Jesus is NOT the great shepherd who saves the world from the law of sin and death. Perhaps Jesus only saved a few.... Remember that Jesus said there are other sheep not of this pasture... What was he talking about? who are these other sheep and who are the goats then?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Heb. 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Christ's second coming is to bring salvation... if Christ hasn't come then NO ONE sees salvation but only hopes for it as did the apostles. There is a culminating event (described in Rev. ) that brings salvation... wouldn't you say?
You bring up points that have nothing to do with scripture in regards to philosophy. I am not comparing them. Is that what you want to do? Covenants, IMO, have various meaning depending on the party of course, but that again is philosophy. What is the covenant in scripture? "
A covenant in scripture is the same as our modern Webster's dictionary. An agreement between two parties. The old covenant was between God and Israel... the new covenant was between God and MAN (whether Jew or Gentile). 1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
The mediator of the covenant was Christ... the covenant is between God and MEN.. not simply Israel but all men.. or is that not what you see?
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It has nothing to do with what your mind thinks, it is what God says.
God doesn't talk to me unless through my mind... I cannot hear God with my ears... but even so, it is my mind that processes the information whether through my ears, eyes, or thoughts! I don't understand why you keep saying that it is about what God says when as we know it is subject to interpretation (by the MIND). But yet you also say this is not a 'blind' following? How can you take what God says from a book and not process it in your mind?
“A man may imagine things that are false,
But he can only understand things that are true.
For if the things be false,
The apprehension of them is not understanding.”
Sir Isaac Newton
The clue that something might be false is that it is not understandable (the trinity for example). This is how humans measure truth from untruth....
1 John 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God.
Heart here is kardia and means: the heart, thoughts, feelingsProlonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle -- (+ broken-)heart(-ed) according to Strong's (#2588).
So what you are saying is directly against scripture. It is what our heart, mind, thoughts, feelings condemn of us that is not the truth. If you ignore those things...
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....but this is where you error I believe. Correct me if I am wrong. You forget that the kingdom is of the spirit, in Heaven, AND on Earth, another dimension where our souls are resurrected in Christ, not destined for death, for those who are not resurrected.....NOW......in Christ. When you die, without Christ, you die. The resurrection in Christ occurs NOW, in this life, upon profession....i.e. natural body sown - put to death (this is symbolic of BEING PUT TO DEATH with Christ at the moment of profession of your faith in Him) Then you are RAISED into life with Christ. That is what 1 Corinthians is about...NOT a physical resurrection, but a SPIRITUAL one.
Our souls receive not death, but life, in a NEW BODY.
You are missing the point. The kingdom is WITHIN... making Heaven (spiritual things) and EARTH (physical things) also WITHIN...
On one hand you say that one must believe (something you do with your heart and mind) yet you tell me I should not use my mind and heart... How is that not a contradiction in terms?
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The "lake of fire" as used in Revelation is not a place of the annihilation of created beings either. John's usage is the state of covenantal death, separation and condemnation before God. That is, to be "in Christ" and "in the New Covenant" is to be "in the New Jerusalem" (Heb 12:18,22-24; Gal 4:24-26); to be "outside of Christ" and "outside of the covenant" is to be "judged" and under condemnation (John 3:18-21) even under the same condemnation of satan and his angels.
Was Jesus the mediator between God and Man or not? If Jesus worked to correct the enmity between God and Man, how can you say that it was not completed?
NOTE: Anyone that is adversarial is satan, even one's self. Anyone who delivers a message is an angel... Lets not invent imaginary beings that are condemned. If you truly understood the bible you would see that prophets were considered "angels" and were judged more harshly than the average person. That would be an interesting thread though....
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Kingdom now, always on Earth AS it is in HEAVEN. Two dimensions, one city.
There is no middle ground before God - John 3:18-20, 12:46; Lk 1:78-79; John 1:5; Acts 26:18; Col 1:13; Eph 5:8; 1 Pet 2:9; 1 Jn 2:9-11
.....those who come out of judgment and darkness and into the light of Christ and New Jerusalem, of course, is accomplished only through the conversion into the covenant with God, and pertains only to those who are being sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Heb 10:14; Rom 10:9) and by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:9-11).
So again you say we are not to use our minds but in order to believe... one must use their minds.. I can't make sense of you logic here.
A covenant in scripture is the same as our modern Webster's dictionary.
With God, it is certain and of a magnitude, that means life, or death eternally.
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