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Gesenius is wrong. I suggest you get a lexicon from this century. HALOT or TDOT are the standards, and, as both of them point out, the etymology is uncertain but is likely derived from שאה. Neither of them even waste their time addressing Gesenius' guess, which hasn't been taken seriously for over 100 years.
As I previously pasted from 1 Enoch, Enoch told us they were "hollows", below earth -subterranean; so the root of the word does mean, "to make hollow".
The hollows are subterranean. Departed from the body souls are there; and so were the chained angels who fornicated before the flood -as Jude also read and referred to; and so are the 90% of the disembodied nephillim demon spirits, as Jubilees refers to, who will be released to torment man, again, during the tribulation.
Jesus verified the "hollows" -Sheol below earth- which Enoch saw, in Luke 16. And two of them, mentioned by Jesus in Luke 16, are just as Enoch said they were.
"Hell" is from "Sheol", in its root all tongues spoken on earth are just mixed/confounded/mingled up Hebrew/Edenic.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 05-20-2010 at 11:15 PM..
Enoch tells us in the end of his book, again, about the state of the unrepentant in Sheol, descending into "darkness and the flames" This is what the righteous Jews believed and taught.
Jesus was a righteous Jew, and He verifies Enoch in His Gospel many times over, teaching and preaching from the very revelations of Enoch, those things which Enoch saw and said about Himself [Jesus the Christ, the Son of Man in heaven, whom Enoch saw hidden, in heaven, with God, who was God] and the state of the redeemed and the unrepentant, and the angels who fell.
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103 Now, therefore, I swear to you, the righteous, by the glory of the Great and Honoured and Mighty One in dominion, 2and by His greatness I swear to you.
I know a mystery
And have read the heavenly tablets,
And have seen the holy books,
And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them:
3That all goodness and joy and glory are prepared for them,
And written down for the spirits of those who have died in righteousness,
And that manifold good shall be given to you in recompense for your labours,
And that your lot is abundantly beyond the lot of the living.
4And the spirits of you who have died in righteousness shall live and rejoice,
And their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One
Unto all the generations of the world: wherefore no longer fear their contumely.
5Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died,
If ye die in the wealth of your sins,
And those who are like you say regarding you:
"Blessed are the sinners: they have seen all their days.
6And now they have died in prosperity and in wealth,
And have not seen tribulation or murder in their life;
And they have died in honour, And judgement has not been executed on them during their life." 7Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol
And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation. 8And into darkness and chains and a burning flame
Where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter;
And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world.
Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace.
Enoch tells us in the end of his book, again, about the state of the unrepentant in Sheol, descending into "darkness and the flames" This is what the righteous Jews believed and taught.
Jesus was a righteous Jew, and He verifies Enoch in His Gospel many times over, teaching and preaching from the very revelations of Enoch, those things which Enoch saw and said about Himself [Jesus the Christ, the Son of Man in heaven, whom Enoch saw hidden, in heaven, with God, who was God] and the state of the redeemed and the unrepentant, and the angels who fell.
There's something about you I like. What I don't understand is your love affair with the Syriac "Enoch." It not only isn't the only ancient writing claiming Enoch as source, it doesn't convince me it is what it claims. To believe it you have to contradict various things in the commonly accepted 66 books of the Bible.
As I previously pasted from 1 Enoch, Enoch told us they were "hollows", below earth -subterranean; so the root of the word does mean, "to make hollow".
I'm afraid that's atrocious lexicography. That's simply not how it's done.
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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
"Hell" is from "Sheol", in its root all tongues spoken on earth are just mixed/confounded/mingled up Hebrew/Edenic.
As has been said by me and others, the modern philosophical concept of eternity was unknown to early Jews and Christians. There are also far too few references to the eternal nature of one as opposed to the other to use that as a categorical boundary.
to come back to this, you appear very well educated though I do not agree with all you say, I'm interested what you think about my conclusions here, especially concering Plato's and Aristotle's (and John of Damascus') idea of aion:
and further if you agree with this author, that it is true, that in earlier ages - also in the early Christian era, men did not even have had a word for "endlessness"
I'm afraid that's atrocious lexicography. That's simply not how it's done..
Jesus had no problem with it, nor did His womb brothers, James and Jude, nor His apostles, nor did His disciple, Barnabas [who was also a called apostle to the Gentiles along with Saul/Paul]; but 2,000 years after Jesus walked the earth in His flesh, and preached His Gospel -using the framework revealed by Enoch, of Him and of the judgment- you do have difficulty with it. -now I wonder why that is -H-m-m?
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22 And thence I went to another place, and he showed me in the west another great and high mountain and of hard rock. 2And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.
3Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: "These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. 4And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period till the period appointed, till the great judgement comes upon them."
5 I saw the spirit of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit. 6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?" 7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men." 8Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: "Why is one separated from the other?" 9And he answered me and said unto me: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water.
10And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. 11Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever. 12And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. 13Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence." 14Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever."
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Jesus had no problem with it, nor did His womb brothers, James and Jude, nor His apostles, nor did His disciple, Barnabas [who was also a called apostle to the Gentiles along with Saul/Paul]; but 2,000 years after Jesus walked the earth in His flesh, and preached His Gospel -using the framework revealed by Enoch, of Him and of the judgment- you do have difficulty with it. -now I wonder why that is -H-m-m?
You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about, and it's clear you have no intention of responding to any of my concerns, much less of seriously considering what I have to say. There's clearly no point in trying to crack through your dogmatism.
You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about, and it's clear you have no intention of responding to any of my concerns, much less of seriously considering what I have to say. There's clearly no point in trying to crack through your dogmatism.
You were quoted above as saying;
Quote:
As has been said by me and others, the modern philosophical concept of eternity was unknown to early Jews and Christians.
You are proved wrong in that Enoch wrote the foundational doctrines of eternal life and eternal judgment and the Son of Man in heaven as the judge of all [whom Enoch alone, saw Hidden with God and who was God and who was to come, and is come].
You are proved wrong in that Jesus preached His Gospel of peace from the framework of Enoch's revelations of Him as the Son of man in heaven; and Jesus used the frame of Enoch's revelations to preach the doctrines of eternal salvation and eternal life, in His name, as Enoch revealed them.
Peter; John; James and Jude [womb brothers of Jesus the Christ, who was to come and is come in flesh of second Man creation]; Paul; Barnabas; the author of Hebrews; and many other early Christian believers in the NT Church, plus the Essene Community [the sons of Zadok, heirs of the royal priesthood in Israel, who kept the writings we have, now ,from the Qumran caves], and the Ethiopian Jews who early in the NT Church age converted to Christ's Gospel, all believed Enoch to be sacred Scripture/writings, and use the framework of the doctrines laid down by Enoch for teaching eternal life or eternal damnation.
The Ethiopian NT believers even kept Enoch in their "collection of writings/Bible", when they converted to Christ, and there it remains, in their Bible, for these almost two millennia since they converted to the Gospel of Christ.
You are proved wrong in that Enoch wrote the foundational doctrines of eternal life and eternal judgment and the Son of Man in heaven as the judge of all
eternal life equates 500 years in the book of Enoch, I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean with "eternal life"
And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.
Enoch 10:10
the life of the saints in Enoch is not considered endless:
And then shall all the righteous escape, And shall live till they beget thousands of children, And all the days of their youth and their old age Shall they complete in peace.
most scholars seem to suggest that the book of Enoch teaches the ultimate annihilation of the wicked, at least of the majority of them, most scholars further think that it was composed from various sources, none of them the biblical Enoch, so there might be apparent inconsistencies in it.
I tend to say, the book of Enoch, at least parts of it, neither teach everlasting life for the saints, nor everlasting torment for the wicked, it appears inconsistent, especially on the fate of the wicked
Further, in several versions of the book of Enoch, Enoch himself, not Christ is called the son of man:
Then that angel came to me, and with his voice saluted me, saying, You are the Son of man, who art born for righteousness, and righteousness has rested upon you.
Here's a passage from Enoch you quoted that contradicts Scripture:
5I saw the spirit of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit.6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?" 7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men."
The flesh profits nothing. God will never be, is not and never was a racist (even though it is foundational to dipSinsationalism.) All any human needs is the gift of the Holy Spirit to be made righteous. The flesh "seed" of any "tribe and tongue and people and nation" does not determine their destiny. Out of all of them God has constituted Priests, Royal Priests unto Himself.
And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to be taking the scroll and to open its seals, For Thou wast slain and dost buy us for God by Thy blood. Out of every tribe and language and people and nation. "Thou dost also make them a kingdom and a priesthood for our God, And they shall be reigning on the earth." (Rv 5:9-10, Concordant Literal Translation)
If you say that it is only what the spirit of Abel is doing apart from approval from God several problems arise. Abel is called, "Righteous Abel." Why would he be doing something un-righteous? More, why would he be doing something so contrary to the truth of the nature of reality for so long a time, not being corrected by The Father Who is not stopped by death, but continues to perfect that concerning us?
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