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That is what I was trying to say to Mike -- not trying to pit them against each other but to show him that the scriptures are inspired words that need the holy spirit to illuminate them and that they can be interpreted in many different directions.
What is coming to light more and more for me is that there are many different layers to the scriptures as well -- preterism, and historicism and futurism to me are all correct in different layers, physical and spiritual fulfillments national and individual fulfillments.
But that is probably a different thread ..................
I agree, i have come to see that the scriptures can and should be understood in many various ways. There is a little bit of truth in every ones different interpretation. Here a little, there a little ...
I would still like for someone, anyone, to tell me where in the bible does it say that the scripture(gramma) is the word(rhema, spoken word) of God ... Anyone?
Before i believed in UR virtually all the believers i knew did not believe the scripture(gramma) is the word(rhema,spoken word).
The few believers i knew that did if i remember right were Brethren ?
For those to to say it's a UR thing is stretching it to say the least.
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
May I ask, do you refer to your bible as a "He"?
That is - if someone says "Hey Mike, where's your bible?" do you answer "He's over there"
That is what I was trying to say to Mike -- not trying to pit them against each other but to show him that the scriptures are inspired words that need the holy spirit to illuminate them and that they can be interpreted in many different directions.
What is coming to light more and more for me is that there are many different layers to the scriptures as well -- preterism, and historicism and futurism to me are all correct in different layers, physical and spiritual fulfillments national and individual fulfillments.
But that is probably a different thread ..................
Do you people even bother to read the posts? How many times have I said that the Holy Spirit makes the word of God understandable. And you people keep trying to give the impression that I didn't. Go back and read the posts. Do not misrepresent what I said when it is so easily proven wrong by simply reading what I wrote.
I would still like for someone, anyone, to tell me where in the bible does it say that the scripture(gramma) is the word(rhema, spoken word) of God ... Anyone?
What did I say in the very first post right at the beginning? I have highlighted it below. What distinction do you see? Read the entire paragraph. Don't just move your eyes over the words, READ THEM. The objections you nay sayers make have already been addressed in my posts before the objections were made.
[quote=Mike555;14255818]It seems that many professing Christians regard the Bible as nothing more then dead letters in a book. This explains why they feel free to disregard the Scriptures that they personally don't like and refer to them as doctrines of men.
But what do the Scriptures themselves say?
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Some will say that Heb. 4:12 refers to Jesus and not to the Bible. But as Jesus is the living Word, so too is the Bible the written word. The Bible is the mind of Christ. The thoughts of Christ set down in writing. The words that Jesus Christ communicated, whether spoken while He was on the earth, or written in the Cannon of Scripture, are alive and powerful. Indeed, Jesus never communicated the content of church-age doctrine that is contained in the New Testament Scriptures while He was on the earth. What we have in the New Testament Holy Scriptures was communicated by means of divine inspiration from God the Holy Spirit to the human authors of the Bible.
We have in the written Scriptures, God's complete and connected thought toward man.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 17)That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
The Bible is not human viewpoint, or of human origin, but rather the Holy Spirit's use of human agencies.
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture originates from one's own disclosure. 21) For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is the source of all divine revelation and spiritual wisdom.
2 Timothy 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; 15) and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The Bible is the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, That He should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
The Bible is the absolute norm and standard for the believer.
Psalms 138:2 I will Sing praises to Thee before the gods. I will bow down toward Thy holy temple. And give thanks to Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and Thy truth; For Thou hast magnified Thy word according to all Thy name.
In Romans 1:2 and 2 Timothy 3:15, the expressions 'Holy Scriptures' and 'Sacred Writings' are used respectively.
Rom 1:2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures.
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
God expects the believer to learn and metabolize the doctrines of the word of God.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, ''It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, But on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found and I ate them, And Thy words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart;
Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my path.
Psalm 119:103 How sweet are Thy words to my taste! Yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psalm 119:104 From Thy precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.
Yes, the Bible is the written word of God, and Jesus Christ is the living Word. Everything that God intends for the believer in the church-age to know and to understand has been set down in writing. We have our operating instructions, our marching orders, in written form.
When the believer under the filling ministry of the Spirit (Eph 5:18), through use of the principle of (1 John 1:9), studies the written word, the Holy Spirit will make the spiritual phenomenon perspicacious to the believer. If the believer, upon understanding the doctrine, then believes it, it becomes metabolized and serves to edify the believer, resulting in spiritual growth.
The Holy Spirit will never, I repeat, Never guide a believer contrary to what is contained in the Scriptures. Anyone who claims to have been led by the Spirit to believe somethng that runs counter to what is contained in the Bible is not in the truth.
2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15) And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16) As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-22-2010 at 08:31 AM..
What did I say in the very first post right at the beginning? I have highlighted it below. What distinction do you see? Read the entire paragraph. Don't just move your eyes over the words, READ THEM. The objections you nay sayers make have already been addressed in my posts before the objections were made.
It seems that many professing Christians regard the Bible as nothing more then dead letters in a book. This explains why they feel free to disregard the Scriptures that they personally don't like and refer to them as doctrines of men.
But what do the Scriptures themselves say?
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Some will say that Heb. 4:12 refers to Jesus and not to the Bible. But as Jesus is the living Word, so too is the Bible the written word. The Bible is the mind of Christ. The thoughts of Christ set down in writing. The words that Jesus Christ communicated, whether spoken while He was on the earth, or written in the Cannon of Scripture, are alive and powerful. Indeed, Jesus never communicated the content of church-age doctrine that is contained in the New Testament Scriptures while He was on the earth. What we have in the New Testament Holy Scriptures was communicated by means of divine inspiration from God the Holy Spirit to the human authors of the Bible.
We have in the written Scriptures, God's complete and connected thought toward man.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 17)That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
The Bible is not human viewpoint, or of human origin, but rather the Holy Spirit's use of human agencies.
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture originates from one's own disclosure. 21) For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is the source of all divine revelation and spiritual wisdom.
2 Timothy 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; 15) and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The Bible is the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, That He should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
The Bible is the absolute norm and standard for the believer.
Psalms 138:2 I will Sing praises to Thee before the gods. I will bow down toward Thy holy temple. And give thanks to Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and Thy truth; For Thou hast magnified Thy word according to all Thy name.
In Romans 1:2 and 2 Timothy 3:15, the expressions 'Holy Scriptures' and 'Sacred Writings' are used respectively.
Rom 1:2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures.
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
God expects the believer to learn and metabolize the doctrines of the word of God.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, ''It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, But on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found and I ate them, And Thy words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart;
Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my path.
Psalm 119:103 How sweet are Thy words to my taste! Yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psalm 119:104 From Thy precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.
Yes, the Bible is the written word of God, and Jesus Christ is the living Word. Everything that God intends for the believer in the church-age to know and to understand has been set down in writing. We have our operating instructions, our marching orders, in written form.
When the believer under the filling ministry of the Spirit (Eph 5:18), through use of the principle of (1 John 1:9), studies the written word, the Holy Spirit will make the spiritual phenomenon perspicacious to the believer. If the believer, upon understanding the doctrine, then believes it, it becomes metabolized and serves to edify the believer, resulting in spiritual growth.
The Holy Spirit will never, I repeat, Never guide a believer contrary to what is contained in the Scriptures. Anyone who claims to have been led by the Spirit to believe somethng that runs counter to what is contained in the Bible is not in the truth.
2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15) And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16) As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
I have been a believer most of my life Mike ... And there are over 2000 denominations that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures on many various things. So are those who believe exactly like you concerning the interpretations of scriptures the only true believers?
The scriptures are not the word(rhema) of God. Show me one place in the bible that says the scriptures(graphe) the word(rhema) of God? Can you? NO ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-22-2010 at 03:21 PM..
I have been a believer most of my life Mike ... And there are over 2000 denominations that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures on many various things. So are those who believe exactly like you concerning the interpretations of scriptures the only true believers?
The scriptures are not the word(rhema) of God. Show me one place in the bible that says the scriptures(graphe) the word(rhema) of God? Can you? NO ...
I already have. It's all in the first post.
Denominations are not authorized by the word of God. Interpretations have nothing to do with it. The Scriptures declare themselves to be the word of God. Refer to first post.
How many times have I said that the Holy Spirit makes the word of God understandable.
Great Mike - then we're right back to square 1 - the Holy spirit tells me it means one thing and you another and another says it means something else. So basically - stop worshiping the book itself as anyone can say they understand it to mean 'such and such'.
This is solidly proven by the way. Therefore - FRUIT is the means of discerning God - Love, joy peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness & temperance.
The 'correct doctrine is all important' believers tend toward persecution, judgmental-ness, inquisitions, and using the letter to kill/condemn type scenarios.
Thank God we are getting past all that (much to the chagrin of the doctrinists).
Great Mike - then we're right back to square 1 - the Holy spirit tells me it means one thing and you another and another says it means something else. So basically - stop worshiping the book itself as anyone can say they understand it to mean 'such and such'.
This is solidly proven by the way. Therefore - FRUIT is the means of discerning God - Love, joy peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness & temperance.
The 'correct doctrine is all important' believers tend toward persecution, judgmental-ness, inquisitions, and using the letter to kill/condemn type scenarios.
Thank God we are getting past all that (much to the chagrin of the doctrinists).
Use the fruit method and ye shall never fail.
Tried to rep you, firstborn888.
I've been using that method all along; before I even knew there was such a thing called the "fruit method."
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