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I'm going to waste some more of my time in these damn threads, but I think I am qualified to speak broadly about each city, having closed deals in each one.
Houston is definitely the densest metro, by far, of the three. That is no question. Then comes Dallas, and pretty far behind is Atlanta. Having a dense metro does not mean anything in regards to urbanity or dense "core".
Houston has an extremely dead downtown, slightly better than Dallas. Dallas at least has nearby Uptown and Deep Ellum, both literally adjacent, but Deep Ellum is far from dense and Uptown is built like many of Atlanta's further out business districts (thinking Vinings, etc). It is not particularly walkable, but adds more life to the immediate area.
Houston has nice "districts", particularly towards the south in the Medical Center and Rice/West University Place area. These are basically similar to what Atlanta has going on to the east of the city center.
The reason Atlanta city is more urban than the other two is because everything is concentrated between midtown and downtown, there are more residents, more retail, far more restaurants, more clubs/bars, more entertainment options, more college students, just generally more of everything in a much more walkable environment. While Peachtree is no Michigan Ave or Walnut or Newbury or Broadway, it is closer to these streets than any other street in these cities, and can't really be called dead like the streets in Dallas and Houston.
Dallas builds everything away from its downtown, in separate "islands" of mid-rises, surrounded by seas of parking and jogging trails. Houston is gridded, but oddly walled off everywhere, and without zoning or building regulations is killing its own potential. Atlanta's core is a very active core, and even the Walkability Score indicator places Atlanta far and ahead of the other two. This is evident to anyone who has experienced all 3 cities.
An example of why Dallas is not going to ever become "urban" in the traditional sense is lying in their first major CBD condo development, ever. The Museum Tower is like a gated oasis amongst giant cultural centers that hardly address the street. The area's vibe will never pick up because of the new 45 floor tower. Atlanta's CBD developments OTOH, for which there are many, all address the street and add to the activity, promoting people to walk. Atlanta already has far more condo and hotel and mixed-use towers than Dallas and Houston and is seen more as a proven high-rise living city than the other two, even with our huge bubble.
Location: Metro Atlanta (Sandy Springs), by way of Macon, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme02
The problem is that CD glorifies urban compact cities and demonizes sunbelt style cities.
Cities like Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta are simply different from the North Eastern cities, Chicago, or San Francisco. They arent better or worse, they are simply different. Some will like them better others will hate them.
Why are we pretending that the Sunbelt cities are suddenly going to become like the Northeastern cities? Let them be what they are. I for one would take Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, or Dallas over New York or Philadelphia any day and a big reason I would is because I prefer my own space (or dare I use the world sprawl) over having to live stacked on top of other people. If that means I have to drive my car 30 minutes to work instead of spending 30 minutes on a bus or train, so be it.
While its blasphemy on this forum, the majority of the United States agrees with me. Look at where people are moving. Even in the Urban cities of the country, its all subruban growth. People want good schools, their own house, more space, they want to be near the big city, and they want it for cheap.
At the heart of it all these cities all developed differently for a reason. Its important to remember that too.
Something to consider. A lot of the population boom achieved in the big 3 southern cities have been achieved by the advent of air conditioned cars. So even if they could bring up density where people walk a lot more and take pt more, I'm not sure you would want to. You'd have a lot of people in a hot sticky mess before they got to work.
Something to consider. A lot of the population boom achieved in the big 3 southern cities have been achieved by the advent of air conditioned cars. So even if they could bring up density where people walk a lot more and take pt more, I'm not sure you would want to. You'd have a lot of people in a hot sticky mess before they got to work.
How do people get around up North in those really frigid temps?
Something to consider. A lot of the population boom achieved in the big 3 southern cities have been achieved by the advent of air conditioned cars. So even if they could bring up density where people walk a lot more and take pt more, I'm not sure you would want to. You'd have a lot of people in a hot sticky mess before they got to work.
yeah a lot of people would say that in other countries where it is just as hot, the cities are dense and a lot of people take PT. But you have to understand that a lot of these cities are old and that access to cars are not as easy as in the US.
Places like India have really dense cities, but they are also really old and the country has not been saturated with cars like it is here. Also we complain with or $3 gas but fueling your car is much more expensive over their. I think as other countries develop and they are invaded with Asian cars their cities will sprawl as much as any of ours.
good post justme02. i feel similarly. i don't feel, however, that southern cities should necessarily seek to live a life style or seek the models of cities like san fransisco or l.a. the cities of the northeast w/ their transportation systems, to me, makes a good deal of sense. however, light rail and high speed rail makes little sense in the majority of the major cities in the south or the rest of the sunbelt states. cost for construction, operation, and maintenance of rail systems will always be a major factor in the use of this mode of transportation. leave these cities to make the decisions for themselves, and stay out of it. i'm not going to give up my car for any number of reasons, particularly for independence, nor for the seemingly superiority complex of the train rider, or the "cool" feeling one supposedly gets, as he steps from doors which automatically open." it is simply too much to pay for a fleeting high.
One aspect though to point out, rail options in higher density have great cost effeciencies in scalability. There is an end cost associated with sprawl and the need to build more roads to facilitate this. Roads are not freee either and when aging can cost more than rail options. It is more the best approach for different places but to say rail is more expensive than cars is flat out wrong on many levels. For some areas yes, others no. Long term increased sprawl does have additional costs that do not have the same synergies that can be present in urban areas.
On superiority of the train rider, seriously? Dont see that at all; a viable option in certain areas, yes. I tae the train to Manhattan from Philly, why because it is easiest and to me for this trip actually does provide greater freedom in many ways. I choose my car for other trips.
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