Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"Pro-disease"? Really? How much more confrontational and ridiculous can the rhetoric get?
Why not? Its apt.
The immune system fights disease. The immune system works great when it has "seen" the disease before. If you deny the immune system the opportunity to see the diseases beforehand - how are you not pro-disease?
The Taliban stopping people getting polio vaccinations in Northern Pakistan - that's pretty darn pro-polio, is it not?
Last things first. In many cases, that nurse could be fired. Many hospitals require staff who do patient care to get the flu shot, or wear a mask continuously during flu season, or get fired. I was having a conversation with my spouse about professions who seem more pro-disease than others. I brought up engineering. Look at the Bay Area. He brought up nurses. I said, "hospital nurses, yes, some are pro-disease. But community nurses not so much, b/c we see people with flu. You work on a surgical floor in a hospital, not so much. And the reality is nurses' uptake of flu vaccine is pretty good. Almost Everyone Needs a Flu Shot: CDC 90%, for those too lazy to open the link.
Back to the beginning, I am shocked you would accuse a poster who works in a doctor's office of being unconcerned about health. That people pick up infections in hospitals is for the purposes of this discussion irrelevant.
Suzy isn't a nurse, or a doctor, why are you shocked? You have no idea what I do for a living. Like I said, the actual nurse taking care of my mom doesn't believe the flu vaccine works, so she doesn't get it. Suzy isn't a nurse, but the healthcare worker is actually a nurse. What's the point? You think she should be fired and Suzy should be more respected on a forum because she works in a doctors office? I'd have to know what she does before I compared. Are you basing this all on a vaccine choice, that's it, no comparing anything else? I disagree, and wouldn't assume anything about either. I'm sure in real life Suzy is a nice lady.
As far as backfires, I think the pro-disease people are getting their due. Most message boards I post on, including NPR, are more anti-pro-disease people than this one. Good, hopefully they homeschool as well since they are anti pro disease. It's telling that you think people are getting a "due" as if paybacks are productive. That's exactly why I'm on here trying to make sense out of this movement. The name calling, fear using, payback mentality concerns me.
So why are you posting on this board, if you think there are more important issues.
Because freedom to chose all kinds of things, as well as others rights to chose is important to me. Even if I think vaccinating is a good idea doesn't mean I will demand it from all. I think freedom to chose outweighs that. Can I not? People don't have to be anti vaxers to oppose mandates on personal freedoms. I don't know why you think this. I think vaccines are a great idea, but, I don't think taking personal choice away from others is a good thing so I weigh in on that. Otherwise, I promote vaccines as a useful tool in stopping disease all the time. I've said it over and over again, our feelings on vaccines are the same, the mission is different.
I also think woman can chose what they do with their bodies, can I not? I also think gay people have the right to marry, even if it goes against some religious peoples beliefs, Can I not? I also think religious people can opt out of marrying gays if they feel it's against their morals. Can I not? I believe in the freedom to make choices you deem best for you. Why shouldn't I? Want a gun, go buy one. Do I recommend a safety class, yes, yes I do. There is more than one issue at stake here.
I understand how you can think people who don't believe the science behind vaccines are in need of understanding. I think religious people are as well, because there is no scientific proof of God, none at all, not even a teeny, tiny bit but I still think they deserve the right to believe it if they want to. Should I not? It can pose harmful effects to others, so should I want it banned, or mandated? 911 was caused by a God's wish completed. It's not like religious beliefs aren't harmful to others, they kill as well. Should it be banned? No, no, no and no.
The heck you don't. See my post just above this one.
Sorry, but not everyone agrees with the mission, and I'm glad they don't, I don't. I think this whole issue is turning into great thread topic, heated facebook sayings and battling talk show ups for ratings. And I don't care about any of that. I can ignore that. But, when it comes to state or fed regulations, I care because I care about personal choice, freedom, and all that jazz. No offense meant by me caring about that, let's be clear. I'm sure you guys are nice people, but on this topic we just don't see eye to eye.
I think there are too many mandates already, don't want anymore.
Last edited by PoppySead; 02-11-2015 at 08:55 AM..
The immune system fights disease. The immune system works great when it has "seen" the disease before. If you deny the immune system the opportunity to see the diseases beforehand - how are you not pro-disease?
I believe in taking great care of my immune system so that it can fight illness if and when we contract them. That's not "pro disease", that's pro health.
Quote:
The Taliban stopping people getting polio vaccinations in Northern Pakistan - that's pretty darn pro-polio, is it not?
People in Pakistan still have problems like people openly defecating in the streets which makes their polio problems much greater then here in the US. They also are suspicious of vaccine campaigns due to the fact that a fake campaign is what supposedly caught Bin laden. You seriously cannot compare what's going on in Pakistan to what is going on in the US.
Answers to that question don't necessarily reflect what you think they do. There are a lot of people who would answer "no" to any question asking if the government should be able to mandate anything. My guess would be that many people who answered "no" made their own decision to vaccinate their children without government compulsion.
Answers to that question don't necessarily reflect what you think they do. There are a lot of people who would answer "no" to any question asking if the government should be able to mandate anything. My guess would be that many people who answered "no" made their own decision to vaccinate their children without government compulsion.
I agree. I'm positive for vaccination, but not for mandating it. I don't think people should be out of work, school or the healthcare system if they don't get it.
The bigger here is one of personal freedom and government intrusion on the lives of it's citizens. While Poppsead and I may have differing views on the vaccination issue, we agree on the issue of personal freedom and government mandates. That is a far more dangerous concept to give up in the name of "greater good".
The bigger here is one of personal freedom and government intrusion on the lives of it's citizens. While Poppsead and I may have differing views on the vaccination issue, we agree on the issue of personal freedom and government mandates. That is a far more dangerous concept to give up in the name of "greater good".
Yes, I think despite all our differences in America, that thought holds us together actually. It's what makes us different from any other country. One of my parents came here for that very reason. I'm very different from others here. With me, it's not whether it's good or bad to be this way, it's who we are regardless. I don't think it's a good idea to lose this common ground. It's better to be proud of who we are and realize why we allow these freedoms in the first place.
We keep forgeting this, and we are slowly losing our idealology. I think I need to be more active given the current climate so people don't blow their "freedom" ride over fear.
Last I heard 102+ cases in the USA and 7 in Canada. So far the relationship between the 7 in Canada is unclear, other than 6 being in Toronto and the other being someone who had recently been in Toronto several times. It looks as though governments are going to crack down on people who refuse vaccinations on religious and personal liberty grounds. In the last few days people who have opposed vaccinations claiming they cause serious health problems in some cases have been being stridently attacked. One example is Queen's University (Canada) professor Melody Torcolacci. So what's going on here? Is the outbreak a "natural" event, a bio-terror attack, or a black op? First we have an unprecedented ebola outbreak, then a complete fubar with the flu vaccine, now a rapidly worsening measels outbreak all within the last six months.
This here, is what got my attention. This is what this thread is about. Not whether vaccines are really safe or not but the freedoms being attacked in the name of it. So this is why I'm trying to stay on the topic. And, this is the topic. I thought I'd refresh some minds.
The bigger here is one of personal freedom and government intrusion on the lives of it's citizens. While Poppsead and I may have differing views on the vaccination issue, we agree on the issue of personal freedom and government mandates. That is a far more dangerous concept to give up in the name of "greater good".
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
Yes, I think despite all our differences in America, that thought holds us together actually. It's what makes us different from any other country. One of my parents came here for that very reason. I'm very different from others here. With me, it's not whether it's good or bad to be this way, it's who we are regardless. I don't think it's a good idea to lose this common ground. It's better to be proud of who we are and realize why we allow these freedoms in the first place.
We keep forgeting this, and we are slowly losing our idealology. I think I need to be more active given the current climate so people don't blow their "freedom" ride over fear.
One point I have consistently and repeatedly made in these discussions about vaccination is that neither the Constitution nor anything else guarantees you the right to have a life totally unimpeded by government or the state. What the Constitution is about is trying to strike a balance between individual rights and the police power of the state to act to protect the health, welfare, and safety of its citizens. In our system, the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution and to bring this discussion back on point, the Court has ruled that state governments can mandate vaccination and they can refuse to grant exceptions to that mandate.
You may think it stands for something else, but you'd be wrong.
The real issues here are simple: 1. Vaccination prevents disease; and 2. Vaccination works best to prevent infectious disease when large percentages of the population are vaccinated.
The reason the courts are willing to let state governments impose vaccination requirements is because of a simple balancing calculus. If vaccination is an infringement on individual liberty than it is the most minor infringement possible to accomplish the purpose of preventing the spread of infectious disease. A quarantine of those infected (or possibly infected) is a much greater deprivation of liberty. Making your child get a vaccination that has a one in a million chance of causing harm to your child is a more rational solution than allowing children to spread a disease that may kill 1 out of a 1000 people who contract it and force 50 others into a hospital for treatment.
You can talk about personal freedom all you want too. That freedom has to be balanced in our system against the freedom other people have to be protected against your spreading infectious disease.
Its really pretty simple.
Last edited by markg91359; 02-11-2015 at 11:11 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think I need to be more active given the current climate so people don't blow their "freedom" ride over fear.
