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Given most kids can tolerate vaccines well, perhaps the small minority of kids that have serious things going on with their immune system should be finding other methods of schooling and other ways to work around public areas if they are in that much danger of catching something serious. After all, aside from school, those kids are probably kept away from lots of other public areas by smart/concerned parents if their immune system is that fragile. A flu is just as serious to such a person and just as/more likely to happen to them yet I don't see a flu vaccine being required as part of this CA law to attend public school. Interesting.
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Originally Posted by stevek64
I 100% agree with the 1st part of your bolded statement, "children who are NOT vaccinated by choice are the minority. You should not have to cater to the minority.
But I find it interesting you say this/conclude that this minority should be catered too: "A child who is at risk to develop measles, or something, even if vaccinated, because of a medical problem or illness should not have to leave school because a kid whose parent chose to not vaccinate him enters class."
Those people are in the minority too so it would be logical to conclude this minority shouldn't be catered too either.
Parents of children who have weakened immune systems do avoid potentially hazardous situations as much as possible. The difference between the unvaccinated by choice child and the immunocompromised child is that the parents of the immunocompromised child do not have a choice concerning some vaccinations - those with live attenuated viruses. The immunocompromised child gets a free ride on herd immunity, having earned it by virtue of his illness. The healthy child not vaccinated by parents who refuse based on an inability to properly evaluate the risks of vaccinating compared to the risks of disease does not get the free ride. In addition, many of those who refuse vaccines do so fully knowing the benefits of vaccines exceed the risks. They just choose to consciously "hide in the herd", protecting their children by letting other parents accept on behalf of the refusers the minuscule risk from vaccinating.
The rational majority, who do vaccinate, have decided not to cater to those who cannot understand that the risks of not vaccinating far exceed the risks of the diseases that vaccines prevent. If that were not true, the vaccines would not even exist.
If public health officials had yielded to anti-vaccinationists of the nineteenth century, it's likely smallpox would still be with us. Mandates exist because public health experts have decided to stop enabling the small minority of people with misplaced fears. Those mandates are acceptable solely because the risk of severe injury from a vaccine is so tiny, much lower than the risk of activities in which we let our children participate every day, including playing sports and riding in a motor vehicle.
Note that children who are immunosuppressed (even while on chemo) may receive some vaccines - those with inactivated organisms - but they may not respond to them optimally. That includes flu vaccine. Treatment may wipe out immunity previously acquired by vaccination and after completion of chemo some children need to be revaccinated. All who get stem cell transplants need to be revacccinated.
Vaccinated kids can also have VPD and spread it before symptoms. There is no way to completely eliminate the risk. Not even with 100% vaccination rates.
Vaccinated kids can catch VPDs. However, when they do, they tend to have milder disease and are less likely to spread it. I previously posted a report on two vaccinated physicians who got measles. Neither recognized it and both continued to work. Neither gave it to anyone else, vaccinated or unvaccinated, and both exposed a lot of people. During the Disney outbreak, some vaccinated people had the measles rash last only an hour. In essence, the vaccine may not completely prevent a person from developing symptoms, but it does suppress replication of the organism and reduce shedding.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
Which is why vaccinated kids aren't sent home in the event of an outbreak but there still are vaccinated kids who can and will spread VPD and some of them will do so prior to symptoms. It's just not realistic that schools will ever be 100% risk free when it comes to VPD. The elimination of all exemptions other then medical (which are difficult to get) is not going to eliminate risk. It is an over reaction on the part of the state. The benefit of eliminating exemptions does not outweigh the risk of giving up our right as parents to decide. We'll never agree. Clearly.
Vaccination mandates are not intended to prevent VPDs one hundred percent. What they do is reduce the size of outbreaks and prevent epidemics.
Legitimate medical exemptions are not hard to get. Getting one just because you do not want to vaccinate should be impossible.
I do not think it has been mentioned before, but some parents who have not vaccinated their children have just not made the effort to do so. Mandates will get them to do it. For those who have not fully vaccinated due to problems with access to health care, mechanisms need to be in place to help them. Any child can be vaccinated these days at little or no cost, though some low income parents may not be aware of that.
Your right to decide does not trump the rights of others to minimize the risk of VPDs. You still have the choice not to vaccinate. No one will take your child from you and vaccinate him against your will.
Last edited by suzy_q2010; 07-14-2015 at 08:29 AM..
In thinking about this, I came up with two things that are "common ground".
1. Everyone wants what's best for their kids
2. No one likes to see their kids get poked with a needle.
That's it!
Anti-vaxers really jump on #2, and post all sorts of nasty photoshopped pictures of tiny babies with 50 or so needles stuck in their bodies, kids crying from vaccination, etc. I posted some examples earlier in this thread. That's much of what's behind "too many, too soon", and many other of the anti-vax memes. They also play up the "Nurse Ratched" idea, that nurses and other vaccine providers somehow get their jollies poking babies and infants.
I would love it if there were a painless (or more pain-free) way to vaccinate. Some progress is being made in that regard.
Again, Tdap has only been around since 2005. Have you gotten this new Pertussis booster yourself in the last 10 years? If you were vaccinated for whooping cough as a child and not since, you could get whooping cough and pass it on.
You seem to believe that no adult has done this. YES. I have. I actually talked long & hard with my doctor because I had a life-threatening reaction to my original Pertussis vaccination. It was deemed safe for me to get it as an adult, so I did. So did my parents. And my husband. And my in-laws. And-and-and. YES. Have enough adults done so? Probably not. But that doesn't negate the reasonable requirement the CA public schools have for children and vaccinations.
Here's one of my biggest fears of these highly communicable diseases--I have read many, many, MANY times about how these illnesses are no big deal. Chickenpox? Pffft. What's a little itching, amirite? It's just no big deal to get these totally common, normal, run-of-the-mill childhood diseases that these posters had and were nothing more than a few days of minor discomfort, if that. THEN, I read how it's so not a big deal because if these kids get sick, they'll just stay home. I call BS. I don't believe for a second that the same parent that says "everyone SHOULD be exposed to wild varicella in early childhood for their own good" would see what could possibly, maybe be a chickenpox rash & keep the kid home if he/she was feeling well. Don't buy it. Meanwhile, they've already BEEN contagious and passed it on to others, including those who cannot, due to medical reasons, be vaccinated. Who is giving THOSE kids a choice to not get an illness that could be potentially life-threatening? Look, I don't like the fact that my kid couldn't take a freaking peanut butter sandwich to school last year. But it was in the best interest of a classmate, so we complied. I could just send it anyway, because that kid's parents should know that he/she needs to be careful, and it's their fault anyway for putting that kid in a public school. But it's the right thing to do, because it keeps that child safe. One kid. Out of 28. That one child means that 27 others have to alter their behavior. Is that fair? Maybe not, but it's the RIGHT THING TO DO.
In California, if a child will be attending (physically) a public school, they must be vaccinated. If the PARENT chooses not to vaccinate the child, they cannot physically attend. There are virtual options; there are private options; there are homeschooling options. The child is not denied an education if there are options (including public online schooling) available. There is a choice, it's just that many of you don't like it. We don't live in a country where you can stamp your foot and hold your breath to get your way. This is a decision that MANY feel is necessary for the good of the majority. I cannot evaluate every situation to suit my own desires and expect the world to get used to it. I live in the world, so I need to occasionally make compromises. Is this a big one? YES, no denying it. And I'm sorry it is causing such upset in those who don't want to vaccinate their children.
And to bring in arguments like, "why do this when adults aren't getting boosters?" or "why do this when they aren't requiring the flu shot?" is just baby with the bathwatering it. To say, "Oh, you're right, this other thing that is tangentially related is not being done, so let's not do anything at all!" is ridiculous. Two inactions don't make an action.
This me-me-me idea of society is troubling. I do a lot of things that are for the good of my fellow citizens and do not a lot for me personally. Happily. Because I feel it's the right thing to do.
Kayanne, I can see how earnest you are, and would ask that you take a look at the last 15 or so posts.
How would you handle these two most recent statements by the anti-vax crowd:
There's too many vaccines for kids/why bother vaccinating since we don't vaccinate for every single thing...
Why should my unvaccinated kid not be able to choose to come to school - keep your child with cancer (even as she/he is recovering) home
As you've acknowledged, missterri Steve and Jo would vaccinate if measles came back. If they'd rather die than vaccinate (which is what 2/3 said) then what would "convince them to change their mind". They just hide in the herd and ironically until the whacky anti-vax logic gained some traction that worked.
As with the measles outbreak, the only thing more effective than legislation is a good old pandemic.
Excuse me? Why would I vaccinate if measles came back? I HAD measles. I have lifetime natural immunity to measles. My kids are over 30. They can do whatever they want to do.
I worked in a public school in 2007 where there WAS a measles outbreak. Only the 3 kids who had measles stayed home. They did not shut down the school or send the unvaccinated kids home. No Hazmat team sent in to clean anything up. This was in Florida, which still has a religious exemption for children. Public school staff are not required to show their vaccination records at all.
There wasn't the panic you seem to think there SHOULD be.
I think you mean Small Pox. Well, I still have a fading scar from that vaccination for proof. Might even have proof of my Small Pox BOOSTER in my Old Passport. Have you ever gotten a Small Pox Booster????
No, I would not do a 3rd Small Pox vaccination especially at my age.
Honest question, is there a current and effective protocol to treat these diseases and minimize complications if someone does get measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough?? Because I don't understand all the comments that use the word "terrified."
Certainly I would have to believe that medical care would have advanced since we had these childhood diseases so that they wouldn't be seen as scarier to deal with than decades ago.
Excuse me? Why would I vaccinate if measles came back? I HAD measles. I have lifetime natural immunity to measles. My kids are over 30. They can do whatever they want to do.
I worked in a public school in 2007 where there WAS a measles outbreak. Only the 3 kids who had measles stayed home. They did not shut down the school or send the unvaccinated kids home. No Hazmat team sent in to clean anything up. This was in Florida, which still has a religious exemption for children. Public school staff are not required to show their vaccination records at all.
There wasn't the panic you seem to think there SHOULD be.
I think you mean Small Pox. Well, I still have a fading scar from that vaccination for proof. Might even have proof of my Small Pox BOOSTER in my Old Passport. Have you ever gotten a Small Pox Booster????
No, I would not do a 3rd Small Pox vaccination especially at my age.
Honest question, is there a current and effective protocol to treat these diseases and minimize complications if someone does get measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough?? Because I don't understand all the comments that use the word "terrified."
Certainly I would have to believe that medical care would have advanced since we had these childhood diseases so that they wouldn't be seen as scarier to deal with than decades ago.
Not talking about polio or smallpox.
They're all viruses except pertussis. The best you can do with a virus is supportive care. There is no one effective treatment to wipe out the virus. Children with whooping cough can be given antibiotics which basically decrease how infectious the person is. There is nothing to get rid of or even deal with the cough. You have to wait it out.
Honest question, is there a current and effective protocol to treat these diseases and minimize complications if someone does get measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough?? Because I don't understand all the comments that use the word "terrified."
Certainly I would have to believe that medical care would have advanced since we had these childhood diseases so that they wouldn't be seen as scarier to deal with than decades ago.
Not talking about polio or smallpox.
I am NOT a medical professional. But I do understand that part of the problem of treating the illness in the cases of viruses is there is NOT a treatment for the illness as a whole. You can mitigate certain symptoms (fever, for example), but you can't take a pill to make measles go away. Vitamin A supplements can be given to help with children who have poor nutrition, but I recently read there's no notable benefit in generally healthy populations.
The reason they are scary is that they are HIGHLY contagious, can have profoundly serious symptoms, and there is no way to treat the whole illness once it is contracted.
According to WHO stats, 16 people die of measles every hour. 16 every hour. No, not in the US. But that's a pretty freaking serious illness, no?
Honest question, is there a current and effective protocol to treat these diseases and minimize complications if someone does get measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough?? Because I don't understand all the comments that use the word "terrified."
Certainly I would have to believe that medical care would have advanced since we had these childhood diseases so that they wouldn't be seen as scarier to deal with than decades ago.
Not talking about polio or smallpox.
Thankfully responsible vaccination has largely eliminated these diseases. It's because people have been choosing not to vaccinate that they're on the upswing in North America.
Medical care has advanced significantly - now with sufficient numbers of people getting their vaccines we don't get these diseases.
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This was in Florida, which still has a religious exemption for children. Public school staff are not required to show their vaccination records at all.
