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And don't these kids, few as they might number, deserve opportunities to learn in public school? (Note: if they skip grades, they actually save the school district money!) Also the original point of this is that these kids don't tend to get as much recognition/praise/adulation *in general* compared to similarly exceptionally gifted athletes.
And no, that's not how it works re: social skills for many of these kids. You're not listening to what many of us are saying. Yes, social skills mature with age. Of course on some level some interactions get easier with age and experience, like they do for everyone. But often kids who think on this other level *have a very hard time relating to other kids.* Also, sometimes (or often) they are flat-out judged if they are grade skippers. Perhaps more by adults than other kids ((and reading this forum, such a fact surprises me less and less). They are in a unique position and it's not an easy one to navigate. That is the point.
Not the topic of my post. I was saying I think the OP means all the "smart kids". He's argued time and again for tracking, starting at the lowest levels. As I said, when my kids' school had a TAG program at the elementary level, they didn't even start to identify kids until 3rd grade.
I think any thread that starts out "Why" is begging the question. Many posters have said their schools/their kids' schools do not give undo "recognition/praise/adulation" to athletes as opposed to educationally gifted students. My district doesn't have any competitive sports in elemenatry school, only intramurals in grades 6-7, and only a few sports in 8th. How are any students getting "recognition/praise/adulation" in those circumstances?
And don't you think "hate" is a bit strong of a word for how the OP describes gifted students? I don't know of any school that "hates" these students.
Aren't you the one who said gifted kids usually quit believing in Santa Claus sooner, only to be given an example of a group of high-end kids some of whom still believed in 5th grade (age 10-11)?
Believe it or not, I do know some things about child development, having spent a career in maternal/child health and having raised two kids.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 07-19-2018 at 04:48 PM..
OK, I know the OP is coming back tonight to (hopefully) explain himself a little better, but I have some things I want to say right now.
There are a few people on here who agree with that premise. Most do not. Take my husband. Please! (J/K for that last) He's a quiet type, and when he was younger, from what I hear, shy. But that doesn't mean "lacking in social skills". I didn't know him back then, but by all accounts, he knew how to behave appropriately.
I agree, but many people label "gifted" people as having bad social skills, which is what I think the OP was getting at.
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Again, you don't know what the OP meant. And now you're dumping on girls, too?
No, I am not dumping on girls. My 2nd grade teacher very blatantly favored girls. That was not just my opinion, but the opinion of everybody that knew her. If a fair system was used to determine who was in the "gifted" program, then ideally it should have been about half boys and about half girls.
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That sounds rather odd. I take it that was just elementary school?
It also included 6th grade, which was in middle school. Although, for grades 7-12, who got into honors and AP classes was also seemingly arbitrary with no testing or official criteria. But it did not require being in the "gifted" program in elementary school. And, it was not limited to the quiet, compliant types, and seemed to be more equitable as far as gender.
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My kids' school dropped TAG for elementary school altogether when my oldest was in kindergarten, but I recall the K teacher saying they didn't make decisions about TAG until 3rd grade.
It was the first thing that my district dropped when the budget vote failed in 1991. As far as I know, it was never replaced.
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ITA. Even back in my day (Class of 1967), the people who got elected to student council and class offices were among the better students anyway., if not the top 10%, which some were. I can't tell you who the captain of the football team was, but I can tell you who our class president was.
The student council was the "popular" kids, not usually the smartest.
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Such kids would number 2 or 3 per hundred kids or so, from statistics I've seen. I dunno. In a big HS, that would number 10-15 kids. From previous discussions with this OP and his right-hand man here, I think he's talking about all the "smart kids". Your son's skills are improving as he gets older. That's the way it works. My daughters were more quiet and shy in elementary school and middle school than in HS.
No matter how small the number is, such kids need to be accommodated.
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OK, back to my husband. I figured by HS he probably knew more than his teachers about certain topics. He confirmed that with me. He said, however, he never got in trouble for it, and I think by then, he was probably speaking up for himself and saying "No that's not how it is".
That would get me in trouble.
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Middle school is a horrible time for most kids. I hated "jr. high" as it was called then. My brother was more popular than me, and an athlete, so I was surprised to find out in adulthood that he hated it too.
I agree, everybody hates middle school / junior high.
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I think such lists went out with the dodo bird. A good way to get a kid to hate reading is to make him/her read something he hates. I'm not saying don't broaden their horizons, but do give them some choices. That's what my kids' school, out in white-bread mid-America suburbia did.
I have to agree with you there.
By the way, I noticed that you highlighted my comment about people resenting others who got a resource (such as a college scholarship) that they didn't get. I assume that you planned to comment on it, but you didn't do so.
And don't these kids, few as they might number, deserve opportunities to learn in public school? (Note: if they skip grades, they actually save the school district money!) Also the original point of this is that these kids don't tend to get as much recognition/praise/adulation *in general* compared to similarly exceptionally gifted athletes.
And no, that's not how it works re: social skills for many of these kids. You're not listening to what many of us are saying. Yes, social skills mature with age. Of course on some level some interactions get easier with age and experience, like they do for everyone. But often kids who think on this other level *have a very hard time relating to other kids.* Also, sometimes (or often) they are flat-out judged if they are grade skippers. Perhaps more by adults than other kids ((and reading this forum, such a fact surprises me less and less). They are in a unique position and it's not an easy one to navigate. That is the point.
Skipping grades is not the answer. First of all, that would be a disaster socially for somebody who is already behind in social skills. Also, other posters have agreed that "gifted" kids have asynchronous development, where they may be strong in one area but weak in another area. Skipping a grade is just going to cause them to fall further behind in the areas where they are weak. Also, even if you have perfect social skills, you are going to run into problems when you are the only high school senior who is too young to drive, the only college senior who is too young to drink, etc.
I agree, but many people label "gifted" people as having bad social skills, which is what I think the OP was getting at.
No, I am not dumping on girls. My 2nd grade teacher very blatantly favored girls. That was not just my opinion, but the opinion of everybody that knew her. If a fair system was used to determine who was in the "gifted" program, then ideally it should have been about half boys and about half girls.
It also included 6th grade, which was in middle school. Although, for grades 7-12, who got into honors and AP classes was also seemingly arbitrary with no testing or official criteria. But it did not require being in the "gifted" program in elementary school. And, it was not limited to the quiet, compliant types, and seemed to be more equitable as far as gender.
It was the first thing that my district dropped when the budget vote failed in 1991. As far as I know, it was never replaced.
The student council was the "popular" kids, not usually the smartest.
No matter how small the number is, such kids need to be accommodated.
That would get me in trouble.
I agree, everybody hates middle school / junior high.
I have to agree with you there.
By the way, I noticed that you highlighted my comment about people resenting others who got a resource (such as a college scholarship) that they didn't get. I assume that you planned to comment on it, but you didn't do so.
Bolds:
1. My kids' school policy was to accommodate anyone who wanted to take an honors/AP course in middle/HS. As you should know, the # of students taking AP classes in HS is seen favorably by some rating organizations.
2. That's true (to a point) about student council, but it wasn't the athletes who went out for it, at least back in the dark ages in Beaver Falls, PA. Most were fairly good students.
3. Yes, but not what we were talking about. Again, my district seems to do a pretty good job with dual enrollment courses at the CC, etc.
4. I was going to say "speak for yourself". Not everyone is devastated because they didn't get chosen for some honor.
Not the topic of my post. I was saying I think the OP means all the "smart kids". He's argued time and again for tracking, starting at the lowest levels. As I said, when my kids' school had a TAG program at the elementary level, they didn't even start to identify kids until 3rd grade.
I think any thread that starts out "Why" is begging the question. Many posters have said their schools/their kids' schools do not give undo "recognition/praise/adulation" to athletes as opposed to educationally gifted students. My district doesn't have any competitive sports in elemenatry school, only intramurals in grades 6-7, and only a few sports in 8th. How are any students getting "recognition/praise/adulation" in those circumstances?
And don't you think "hate" is a bit strong of a word for how the OP describes gifted students? I don't know of any school that "hates" these students.
Aren't you the one who said gifted kids usually quit believing in Santa Claus sooner, only to be given an example of a group of high-end kids some of whom still believed in 5th grade (age 10-11)?
Believe it or not, I do know some things about child development, having spent a career in maternal/child health and having raised two kids.
Of all your questions here, I do agree that the term "hate" is really probably too strong a term. But as for the general gist of what the OP is saying... I get it.
Also, re: the Sanat Claus thing, as I said previously, I used the term "tend to" -- not "always." Honestly many of your points are picking at things with really really nitpicky specific points that seem much like arguing for the sake of arguing. Using the specific examples of your district or your husband doesn't prove anything but your own experience. The discussion is about the larger picture of values in our society.
Skipping grades is not the answer. First of all, that would be a disaster socially for somebody who is already behind in social skills. Also, other posters have agreed that "gifted" kids have asynchronous development, where they may be strong in one area but weak in another area. Skipping a grade is just going to cause them to fall further behind in the areas where they are weak. Also, even if you have perfect social skills, you are going to run into problems when you are the only high school senior who is too young to drive, the only college senior who is too young to drink, etc.
Skipping may have been a bad idea for you. Totally get that. But, with all due respect, it sounds like you are just now learning about the gifted population and so you can't really speak to what might work for all of them. That is a big general statement you're saying here and it simply is not true across the board. It's a bad idea in many cases, for many kids, but absolutely not for all. For some kids, there is just no other way to get them through school, unless you want them miserably bored out of their minds for several years.
Bolds:
4. I was going to say "speak for yourself". Not everyone is devastated because they didn't get chosen for some honor.
I wasn't even referring to myself. Another poster said that at his school, people were angry at athletes for taking spots away from others. I explained why that is, and explained why it's not unique to athletes. I had a full academic scholarship for college, and I know others who did not have a scholarship were angry if they for whatever reason felt they were more deserving of a scholarship than I was.
Skipping may have been a bad idea for you. Totally get that. But, with all due respect, it sounds like you are just now learning about the gifted population and so you can't really speak to what might work for all of them. That is a big general statement you're saying here and it simply is not true across the board. It's a bad idea in many cases, for many kids, but absolutely not for all. For some kids, there is just no other way to get them through school, unless you want them miserably bored out of their minds for several years.
I did not skip any grades. But I did see peers that had fall birthdays who were 16 when they started their senior year of high school, 17 when they started college, and 20 when they started their senior year of college, being socially at a huge disadvantage compared to others, regardless of their social skills. And no, that did not apply to me, since my birthday is during the summer.
I did not skip any grades. But I did see peers that had fall birthdays who were 16 when they started their senior year of high school, 17 when they started college, and 20 when they started their senior year of college, being socially at a huge disadvantage compared to others, regardless of their social skills. And no, that did not apply to me, since my birthday is during the summer.
Did you know one peer in that very specific situation, or multiple peers? (Sounds like one.) And again, that is one example. It does not carry over into all situations. People in this thread seem to have trouble with that -- picking one personal example and holding it up as the authoritative truth for everyone. If that's the case, then I get to say that definitely acceleration works for everyone, because I actually started my senior year of college at 20 and it was nothing but a fantastic thing for me. No social issues and it gave me such a solid leg up on my career, my retirement savings, etc. compared to some who graduated at 23.
I'm just saying that while some of these things are true for you or one person you know or knew, that does not mean they are true for absolutely everyone.
Of all your questions here, I do agree that the term "hate" is really probably too strong a term. But as for the general gist of what the OP is saying... I get it.
Also, re: the Sanat Claus thing, as I said previously, I used the term "tend to" -- not "always." Honestly your points are picking at things with really really nitpicky specific points that seem much like arguing for the sake of arguing. Using the specific examples of your district or your husband doesn't prove anything but your own experience. The discussion is about the larger picture of values in our society.
Time for personal attacks, eh? Most people post on CD because they like to discuss issues. I will point out that in my post you quoted I did not mention my husband. What's wrong with pointing out my district's policies? Is Colorado not a part of American society?
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