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Some colleges of note-Colorado School of Mines (28 students);Air Force (23); Army (3); Notre Dame (3); Penn (3); Cal Poly (1); UCLA (1); U of Pittsburgh (1); Penn State (1); Georgia Tech (1); Princeton (1); Yale (1); Navy (1).
I student signed to play football at Carnegie-Mellon (D3, no scholarship), 1 signed to play girls soccer at MIT (ditto).
1. You're obviously working with the top students.
2. I have discussed this issue more than once with my husband who spent 35 years in IT. He disagrees that the Indian computer people are better educated. The main advantage to computer companies is that the Indians on the H1-b visas work for less.
I was a software engineer and project leader, not in IT, in actual software development, and I can guarandangtee you that my Indian peers were every bit as good as any USian programmer, and most often BETTER. It didn't matter what kind of visa they had. And yes, a major attraction for hiring on the H1-B visa is that those folks are trapped and HAVE to accept lower salaries or lose their visa and be deported. That is not their fault. And there are MILLIONS of them back in India who will work for pennies on the dollar and turn out work just as good, and often better, than our home grown programmers and engineers.
Get it straight. There are over a billion Indians now. And even if 30% or whatever are totally illiterate, that leaves about 800 million or more who are not. There are way more educated Indians with degrees in all technical fields than there are USians. We are at about 1/3rd their population level. Way more of them than us, and willing and ABLE to work on the cheap without ever setting foot outside of India.
I was a software engineer and project leader, not in IT, in actual software development, and I can guarandangtee you that my Indian peers were every bit as good as any USian programmer, and most often BETTER. It didn't matter what kind of visa they had. And yes, a major attraction for hiring on the H1-B visa is that those folks are trapped and HAVE to accept lower salaries or lose their visa and be deported. That is not their fault. And there are MILLIONS of them back in India who will work for pennies on the dollar and turn out work just as good, and often better, than our home grown programmers and engineers.
Get it straight. There are over a billion Indians now. And even if 30% or whatever are totally illiterate, that leaves about 800 million or more who are not. There are way more educated Indians with degrees in all technical fields than there are USians. We are at about 1/3rd their population level. Way more of them than us, and willing and ABLE to work on the cheap without ever setting foot outside of India.
I didn't say the Indians were worse, I said they were not better educated. And IT was a sort of shorthand for software development, actually my DH has a PhD in physics so I think he's capable of assessing.
And no country with their illiteracy statistics is a role model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Surely you jest! Yes, let's look at India. Here are their literacy statistics: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...rate-in-india/ In 2015, a full 37% of women were illiterate, and 19% of men, a total of 28%, over 1 in 5.Yes, yes, YES, let's adopt their system. India doesn't spend a lot of "their time" on education OR athletics.
I didn't say the Indians were worse, I said they were not better educated. And IT was a sort of shorthand for software development, actually my DH has a PhD in physics so I think he's capable of assessing.
And no country with their illiteracy statistics is a role model.
Didn't say it was (a role model). But on sheer numbers alone, they win. Educated Indians ARE often better educated than USians. There are FAR more of them than there are of us and they work for cheaper. This is a real danger to this country that our society absolutely refuses to address, as illustrated by your own denial of the facts here.
And no, I'm sorry, but your hubby's PhD in Physics, while quite impressive of its own right, does not mean he is more competent to assess trends in software engineering education and employment policies than I am. He may very well be better prepared for it than other PhDs in Physics, but he's still not been formerly trained across the breadth and depth of any of the many fields of computer science.
I wouldn't argue with him about Physics; why you think you can argue with me about Software Development employment trends and relative competence on the basis of being married to somebody who isn't even in the same field is pretty laughable.
And I see I OVER estimated the number of "illiterate" Indians - its only 27%. Didn't feel the need to go back to the exact statistics. Thanks for correcting that. It is LESS than I claimed, LOL!
This thread has basically fizzled into a tiring exercise of one person demonstrating the inability to refute the original general claim, which has since been clarified, with anything but extremely specific personal anecdotes and then, in turn, refusing to accept the validity of personal anecdotes shared by others in support of the original general claim. It's just the wheels on the bus go round and round, at this point.
Pyewackette -- reading your account of your experience in school was very moving. I am very sorry that you went through such atrocities. That had to be extremely difficult to overcome. I think it's a lot better for those who are highly gifted now, in many areas -- but not all. Absolutely no one, regardless of their academic level, should be subjected to such treatment. It makes someone who already knows he/she is an outlier feel even more isolated, and that shouldn't happen. I think the original post moved me because those who are like you should feel as though their perspectives, their talents, and their accomplishments should be celebrated instead of suppressed. And that's less likely to happen in some places compared to others.
I can't answer your questions, but I CAN tell you I had the same experience. If a teacher found out I was "reading ahead", I was punished, up to and including a paddling - which in my school was accomplished with a large, heavy, oak paddle with holes cut in it because the principle told those of us being so punished that it would hurt more that way.
What excuse is there for a grown man to beat an 8 year old child for "reading ahead"?
My first grade teacher refused to believe I could read and would not allow me to demonstrate said ability to her. Instead she stood me up in front of class and told all the other students I was a liar and that I was stupid, if not actually retarded. Totally humiliating, and I was punished some more for crying out in protest that I COULD read and would be happy to read aloud from any book of her selection.
We were required to ask permission to use the bathroom (which was in the classroom so you didn't even have to walk down the hall to get to it) and we were required to tell the teacher and the entire class what exactly we would be doing in there. Yeah, weird.
The very first time I needed to go to the bathroom, I obediently raised my hand to ask permission, whereupon this evil harridan demanded to know if I was going to do "#1" or "#2". I had NO idea what she was talking about, which, of course, she took as more evidence of my borderline (or perhaps not-so-borderline) retardation. When I finally got her to be clear enough about what those terms meant (she said something totally stupid like, "Is it going to come out the front or the back?), a lightbulb went off over my head, and I blurted out in typical 6 year old style, "OH, you mean do I need to URINATE or DEFECATE!"
Whereupon she hauled me into the bathroom to wash my mouth out with soap for using "dirty words", quickly followed by a trip to the hallway where she waled away with a paddle just for that extra bit of unnecessary trauma.
In a way that incident might have been a good thing in the long run, because I was so traumatized by this treatment on top of all the rest of what she had been doing to me (telling the entire class that I was a lying retard, etc) that I went home, speechless, and cried for hours. My mother never did get out of me what was wrong except that I hated school (though I had loved kindergarten), so she went to school the next morning, buttonholed this woman, and through a combination of shouting, threats, and intimidation, got the truth out of her.
Whereupon she marched off to the principal's office and unloaded the whole story on him (first taking me OUT of the class so I couldn't be further abused in her absence).
The end result was that they gave me the Metropolitan test (an ancient achievement test that they gave everyone in the school system at the end of every year, in every grade) and due to my ridiculously high score on that promoted me immediately to the 2nd grade. I spent TWO horrible weeks in the first grade with that teacher. But my fate was now set in concrete - that woman hated me, was sure I had somehow cheated (I cannot imagine how I could have accomplished that, given it was administered to my by the school principal) or that they had put me up a grade only to appease my mother, and she continued to spread lies and rumors about me to the other teachers AND CHILDREN.
This was the beginning of the hell labeled "school" for me.
The vast majority of my continuing problems with teachers and other students revolved around my reading ability, and love of reading, thereafter. The only elementary teacher I had who wasn't abusive was my 2nd grade teacher and I am ever so grateful for her kindness, compassion, and gentle manner with me. It was all I had to hold onto for the next 10 years.
However my 3rd grade teacher was another nightmare. Remember that Metropolitan test? Well in the third grade, I scored higher on it than every other student in the entire city except for one high school senior, who beat me out only on the math part. I had the SECOND HIGHEST SCORE in the entire city at the age of 8.
What did this result in? Again, being stood in front of the class while some insane hate-filled woman told the ENTIRE CLASS that I had ONLY scored 2nd, which PROVED I was not as smart as I thought I was and that I would be a complete failure in life because I was actually not smart, but stupid.
IN ADDITION, she would search my desk and school bag regularly and confiscate books she deemed to be above a 3rd grade reading level. These constituted various Oz books, Nancy Drew, and the Bobbsy Twins. None of these should have been out of reach for a moderately intelligent 3rd grader. When the class went to the library, I was restricted to easy readers with titles like "Plucky Duck Plays In The Rain". And here is where I met another rare, bright light in my educational incarceration - the school librarian made a private deal with me that I could come in after school (she would purposely wait for me) and check out ANY BOOK I WANTED. So I was able to read The Hobbit for the first time in the third grade. To my dismay I cannot remember anything about this woman except for this extraordinary display of kindness and compassion. By now I had nothing in my life to comfort me but the escape of reading.
Fourth grade - we were asked to write a short story about our feelings. I complied. I wrote about my life as a carpet - ignored, walked on, dirtied, damaged, and ultimately rolled up and thrown away. She told me I was just trying to get attention and returned it to me with a demand that I write something else. In a rare show of defiance, I refused. She flunked me for the assignment and told the entire class what a liar I was. Another time, she demanded to know "what (was) wrong with (me)". I told her I was depressed. She told me that it was impossible for children to be depressed and I had better straighten up and fly right, and that I should be ashamed of myself.
Also they brought in a psychiatrist - and back then they were all Freudian - to evaluate me, probably to confirm their belief that I was a nutcase and/or retarded. I did not at first know what he was up to. He started with word association, and because I was on a poem writing kick at the time, the first thing that came into my mind every time was a rhyme. He stopped me and informed me I was doin' it wrong. When I figured out what he was ACTUALLY up to (this had been presented to me as a game), that this was a PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION (and yes, I knew at the age of 9 what a psychological evaluation was and what word association meant), I got angry and started screwing with him. So it WAS a game after all. And it was immense fun watching this guy flounder about, as he had the distinct feeling I was screwing with him but could NOT for the life of him accept the idea that a 9 year old girl could possibly be putting one over on him.
You should have seen what I did with the Rorschach test. For heaven's sake, I'd already read the complete works of Freud by now, and even if I hadn't, what kid HADN'T seen Bugs Bunny working his magic on the ink blots?
BTW this was done without my parents' knowledge or permission. Years later I asked my dad about it and he was shocked. He'd had no idea they had done this. Wasted an entire day on Freudian nonsense. Never did get the results, either - when I requested my records under the freedom of information act, they had mysteriously been lost. It must have been really egregiously out of line - when one of my brother's asked for HIS records, they were merely redacted left and right. Mine totally disappeared (allegedly).
The thing is, if they had just told me up front who this guy was and what we were doing, and if he had actually ASKED me any questions about why I felt and behaved the way I did, I WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM. I would have told him about the abuse at home. I would have told him about the abuse at school. But he was NOT there to help me, he was there to label me so they could finally stick me in the "special ed" class and forget about me (because I was still being dogged by my first grade teacher's insistence that I was retarded). I'll bet most of the kids stuck out there in the cheap mobile home they used for the "special education" kids were not actually retarded either. Most of them were probably in much the same situation as I was - facing horrific abuse at home, unable to cope, without a friend in the world, alone, frightened, hopeless, and sometimes angry. Not that anyone cared, about them or me. They had hammers, we were nails. That's all she wrote.
Fifth grade - student teachers came in and did a "language program", where they were more or less evaluating us for foreign language ability. They were shocked - in a pleased way - when it came to my turn and I counted to 100 in Spanish, Italian, and Romanian, and to ten in French, German, and Latin, which I had learned from reading the Encyclopedia Britannica language dictionaries at home and sets of language flashcards my older sister had used. I had a smattering of conversational Spanish from language records at home as well. And I could write and name the entire Greek and Hebrew alphabets (we were lapsed Catholics, not Jewish). One of the student teachers literally BEGGED my teacher for permission to enroll me in the after school program they were organizing for language-gifted children, and she told him - again in front of the whole class - that I was already too "big-headed" and was to be put in my place and kept there until it was clear to me and everyone else that I was just an "ordinary" girl, this being the only way to "correct" my "delusions of intellectuality".
It was either this one or the 4th grade teacher who admonished me that "you get more flies with honey than vinegar" after beating some boy at some game, to which I responded with "Who wants to attract flies?" which earned me a slap across the face. I hadn't meant it to be sarcastic, I honestly wondered why someone would want to attract flies. I also did not connect that comment to the fact of having beaten a boy at a game until years later. To me, it came out of the blue and had no connection to current events.
Sixth grade - in trouble for reading ahead AGAIN. I had already read the entire book for the reading class by the end of the first month. In fact I had already started checking out books based on the excerpts from full length books in the textbook. That's how the teacher figured out I'd already been through the whole book. I got demerits that time.
Seventh grade - After gym, I'm sitting in the bleachers waiting for the bell, and reading a book. I heard a kid ask the gym instructor, "Where's Pyewackette?". To which she replied, in a voice dripping with contempt, "Examining her navel, as usual". Followed by peals of laughter from my peers.
Eighth grade - was in the school chess tournament. I won every game. Because I had read and comprehended every single book on chess I could find in both the school and city libraries. The last game I played, I had the guy in stalemate and had him on points. He kept moving his king back and forth, forcing me to keep moving whatever piece it was I was using to threaten his king back and forth to keep his king in check. The teacher in charge of the tournament was sitting RIGHT THERE and would not put a stop to this. Finally one of this kid's friends jostled my elbow when I was trying to move my piece again and made me drop it. The teacher declared the other kid the winner. After that, no one would play me because no one wanted to lose to me. They would just resign the game at the very beginning and tell their friends it was because they didn't want to play a stupid geek like me. I was NOT given the first place award even though I had legitimately won every game where anyone would actually play me. It was certainly NOT my fault that the other kids threw so many games thereafter. No trophy for me. I never played chess again, until my son developed an interest when he was 7 or 8. I'm really no good at it any more.
Throughout all of these years and into high school there were many many repeated incidents of punishment for reading ahead, reading above my grade level, reading at lunch, reading reading reading reading ... There were other excuses for abuse as well, but reading was always first and foremost well into high school.
Says me, and I didn't HAVE to hear it, I lived it. See above.
Not anywhere *I* have ever lived! They cut arts, music, and Latin. Sports? NEVER. No cuts to sports - at least not boy's sports. They totally cut out Latin first, then they made severe cuts to both art and music. They never touched the boy's sports programs.
I was certainly troubled, but it certainly was NOT because I was being "coddled". I was being beaten, punished every time I showed any sign of my hyperintelligence, belittled by teachers constantly, attacked on the playground and after school (once had a much larger 6th grader pulled off me by a passing policeman after she knocked me to the ground and started kicking me in the head when I was trying to go home after school, ON the school grounds and despite my having gone to every teacher I could find to tell them I needed help as she had threatened me during lunch period, not one offered help and at least one that I can remember told me if it really happened, it was because I deserved it).
I don't know where you got the impression someone like me was EVER coddled. Perhaps you consider the intervention of a police officer to pull a 6' 13 year old girl off a 3' 8" 8 year old girl to be coddling.
The vast majority of "gifted" programs in schools are not for actually gifted children. They're for A students, the moderately intelligent kids who fit in easily and don't necessarily actually excel. They're smart, but they are not actually geniuses. You are allowed to "excel", but only a LITTLE BIT.
In my (short) life as a clinical psychologist, every single child I retested for an IQ score had, it turned out, been coached through their first test (sometimes given extra time, sometimes just flat out given the answers) by school personnel. Only one of them actually met the stated criteria for the gifted program, and he just barely met it. My own son, when we moved back stateside, was put back a grade and refused entry into the gifted program DESPITE the fact that he already qualified for the gifted program, at first, I was told, supposedly because he didn't know how to write cursive (which they were starting to drop from school curriculums back then). Took me 2 days to teach it to him. Then they told me he would have to "wait his turn". When I was leaving with this unsatisfactory answer, I heard the principal say to the secretary that it would "be a cold day before he gets into the gifted program since that is reserved for Good Christians". Which told me everything I needed to know about that program and totally quashed any thought of putting him in it.
Charter schools do not address the needs of children, they are only out to make money. Many many of them are totally fraudulent, most of them are at least somewhat fraudulent. Charter schools are NOT the answer.
The solution to this problem is to do away with age-based classes and go to ability-based classes. When I was about 10 I found a book about Montessori schools. I cried after reading it. It was like being given a glimpse of Narnia and then having the wardrobe door slammed shut in your face. It may be a little better today than it was when I was a child, but things are still not right. Paddling, at least, has been done away with; most of the more egregious examples of abuse are now actionable. But the TRULY gifted child of parents who are not wealthy is still mocked, belittled, and shut out more often than not.
Very sorry that you had to deal with all of that in school. Those teachers that you had were abusive, and none of them should be anywhere near a child, and they should probably be in jail. I am glad that your mother got you out of that class with your abusive 1st grade teacher.
I didn't have to deal with anything anywhere near what you dealt with, but I too was forced to go to a psychologist and was lied to. I was told that it was a "play group". We addressed the psychologist by his first name. But my father once slipped and referred to him as "Dr. [last name]", but then immediately corrected himself; so I knew something was up then. Years later, I found out that he was a psychologist, but I don't think my parents ever knew that I found out.
Your post is a perfect example of how high achieving students that don't fit the mold are treated so badly by our schools, even if many others have had different experiences.
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
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Quote:
Your post is a perfect example of how high achieving students that don't fit the mold are treated so badly by our schools, even if many others have had different experiences.
another blanket statement. I would total agree if you reword this to: "Your post is a perfect example of how high achieving students that don't fit the mold are treated so badly by some of our schools, even if many others have had different experiences."
some schools and school districts are more "enlightened" than others. In another month I will be attending the 50th HS reunion. I often wondered what happened to my classmate? I know one classmate, a Rhodes scholar, my BIL, did not fare well.
Last edited by leastprime; 07-23-2018 at 11:12 AM..
another blanket statement. I would total agree if you reword this to: "Your post is a perfect example of how high achieving students that don't fit the mold are treated so badly by some of our schools, even if many others have had different experiences."
Ok, fair enough.
Quote:
some schools and school districts are more "enlightened" than others. In another month I will be attending the 50th HS reunion. I often wondered what happened to my classmate? I know one classmate, a Rhodes scholar, my BIL, did not fare well.
Few sports teams even elect a captain these days. All of my kids, and my nieces and nephews were involved in sports in HS. There other activities were limited to thins like National Honor Society and my daughter was on the school newspaper staff.....I think the reason is simple, who could possibly verify this information?
Every team my kids have ever been on has had captains.
NHS and newspaper are clubs. This kind of stuff is on the college application. There isn't a special leadership question. Kids certainly can get into good colleges without extensive leadership but someone asked what colleges were looking for and I am simply repeating what I have heard at various colleges regarding leadership. I don't think colleges can verify the information.
I don't think one has to influence the other. Some of the top academic schools in Western PA are also the top performing schools in sports. Examples include Upper St. Clair, Mt. Lebanon, Fox Chapel, Quaker Valley, North Allegheny, and Central Catholic.
Then, those schools must have a lot of scholar-athletes?[/quote]
This is also true in southern Florida. The very best academic schools also have top performing sports teams.
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