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Old 11-10-2012, 11:55 AM
 
23,722 posts, read 16,024,869 times
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Quote:
...in this country we have a two party system, in government. And the idea is supposed to be that the two sides both come up with ways to confront and fix the real problems facing our country. They both propose possible solutions to our real problems. And we debate between those possible solutions. And by the process of debate, we pick the best idea. That competition between good ideas, from both sides, about real problems in the real country should result in our country having better choices, better options, than if only one side is really working on the hard stuff. And if the Republican party, and the conservative movement, and the conservative media is stuck in a vacuum sealed, door locked, spin cycle of telling each other what makes them feel good, and denying the factual, lived truth of the world, then we are all deprived, as a nation, of the constructive debate between competing, feasible ideas about real problems.
Rachel Maddow Has Last Word on Election Night 2012: Conservative 'Humiliation' Good for This Country

Rachel got it right.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:07 PM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,732,134 times
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That's exactly right. You can't debate real ideas if one side is living on earth and the other side is in fantasy land. FOX news and some conservative pundits really did their viewers, and the country, a disservice when they went on about how the polls were skewed, or how Obama is a dangerous Muslim communist from Kenya, etc. etc. The part that disturbs me the most is that I don't think it was just cold, calulated spin to try to keep up the spirits of the base--I think they really believed it. It's the same kind of thinking that creates huge problems for the campaigns themselves--if you lie, you convince yourself that you're really telling the truth, or that it's ok because you're on the side of the good and the true. The problem is that voters who aren't in your bubble just see a liar. It's a vicious circle.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:09 PM
 
Location: #
9,605 posts, read 14,278,411 times
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It's not so much they needed humiliation. They just need somebody, anybody to grab that hook and bring them towards the center.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:32 PM
 
23,722 posts, read 16,024,869 times
Reputation: 8723
Quote:
Originally Posted by crbcrbrgv View Post
It's not so much they needed humiliation. They just need somebody, anybody to grab that hook and bring them towards the center.
humiliation - insulted, your ego is bruised, your pride is hurt, you have been shown powerless and diminished in some way.

In this instance I don't see it as an insult, but instead, a wake up call. Showing someone their backside in the mirror...so to speak.

The self inflicted paralysis of the right wing is a drag on the citizenry that is trying to move forward. They even attempted to make the word "Forward" a derogatory one.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:46 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,367 posts, read 8,272,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofnyc View Post
humiliation - insulted, your ego is bruised, your pride is hurt, you have been shown powerless and diminished in some way.

In this instance I don't see it as an insult, but instead, a wake up call. Showing someone their backside in the mirror...so to speak.

The self inflicted paralysis of the right wing is a drag on the citizenry that is trying to move forward. They even attempted to make the word "Forward" a derogatory one.
Agreed, and it's like a drunk or other addict finally needing to hit ''bottom'', before they can get ''sober'' again.

Although considering all the Fundamentalism that's been thrown around the past few years, am kinda reluctant to push the 12-step metaphor any further, by suggesting they should now seek a ''Higher Power''!
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,995 posts, read 11,237,933 times
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I am not sure if "humiliation" is the word. Seems like shaming.

My impression after several years here is that many of the most reliable conservatives posters seem to show no intellectual curiosity whatsoever. They seem to be militantly closeminded. I am not sure if humiliation is going to get such people to think more broadly, or just cause them to double down on the denial. The success of Fox News, Limbaugh, Savage,etc. are linked to a certain way of thinking. Namely to construct your own bubbles where you don't have to think or have your ideas challenged. Who else would listen to such tripe?

I find that mindset a bit foreign, so I cannot really say whether humiliation is a good or bad thing. Losing is good, for me personally, because the ideas I was hearing in this election cycle were just not going to fly for our country. They were factually wrong. But getting conservatives to let go of the partisan crack pipe and move back toward the center might prove kind of hard. They may not be willing or able to change.

Reading in the history of science, sometimes revolutions occur, not from new innovations, but from the death of dogmatic and powerful individuals. Lord Kelvin, for instance, despite his many achievements, put forward hugely incorrect estimates of the age of the earth, and he would not be more than 400 million years old, off by an order of magnitude. Likewise there was a huge debate and stubbornness over the volcanic vs. impact theory for the end of the Cretaceous. The Impact Theory won out, but the old volcanic guard held on. Likewise, I fear that Tea Party type conservatives, steeped in ideology, aging, and getting more cantankerous by the day, will have a hard time accepting new ideas, regardless of how many elections they lose.

Last edited by Fiddlehead; 11-10-2012 at 11:09 PM..
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,657 posts, read 3,200,823 times
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I don't think this is right. Just because an admitted majority of a population believes something does not make it right. A move towards the "center" by people who believe in certain ideals means abandoning those ideals. I will not accept that.

What I see more clearly is that the other side has done a good job of typifying and compartmentalizing conservative ideals, and that some ignorant conservatives have added fuel to the fire. For instance, what the hell is legitimate rape? There is no representation of a conservative view there. I reject that idea as hard as any of you do.

There are many things that require compromise to accomplish, and I am more than willing to accept that. But there are some things where compromise results in abandoning principals. I would rather forever be in the minority than to do that. Just remember, that as convinced as you are that you are right, I am just as convinced that I am. Majority rule doesn't change that.

I predict that in the future, the democrats and liberals will continue to gain a majority of the population and vote. That is something that I will live with. However, I also think that an entitlement society cannot sustain itself forever, and change will be forced on your side too once harsh realities are realized. Until then, you win, and I will continue to vote for what I believe this nation was founded upon: The idea that each person is responsible for their own destiny, that hard work pays off, and that the government should protect it's people, not control them.
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Area 51.5
13,904 posts, read 11,007,593 times
Reputation: 9036
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Agreed, and it's like a drunk or other addict finally needing to hit ''bottom'', before they can get ''sober'' again.

Although considering all the Fundamentalism that's been thrown around the past few years, am kinda reluctant to push the 12-step metaphor any further, by suggesting they should now seek a ''Higher Power''!
I can't believe you said that. Before I read this thread, I responded to a different thread and almost said the exact same thing about hitting bottom, but my reference was to democrats.

So it looks like we can sit and read foolish threads like this for 4 years, where democrats scoff at republicans and say, "neener, neener," all day long, or republicans can strengthen their resolve and nominate a decent candidate in 2016. And don't forget 2014. It'll be here before ya know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
I don't think this is right. Just because an admitted majority of a population believes something does not make it right. A move towards the "center" by people who believe in certain ideals means abandoning those ideals. I will not accept that.

What I see more clearly is that the other side has done a good job of typifying and compartmentalizing conservative ideals, and that some ignorant conservatives have added fuel to the fire. For instance, what the hell is legitimate rape? There is no representation of a conservative view there. I reject that idea as hard as any of you do.

There are many things that require compromise to accomplish, and I am more than willing to accept that. But there are some things where compromise results in abandoning principals. I would rather forever be in the minority than to do that. Just remember, that as convinced as you are that you are right, I am just as convinced that I am. Majority rule doesn't change that.

I predict that in the future, the democrats and liberals will continue to gain a majority of the population and vote. That is something that I will live with. However, I also think that an entitlement society cannot sustain itself forever, and change will be forced on your side too once harsh realities are realized. Until then, you win, and I will continue to vote for what I believe this nation was founded upon: The idea that each person is responsible for their own destiny, that hard work pays off, and that the government should protect it's people, not control them.
I'm right there with you, frog. I have no intention of compromising my principles.
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:34 PM
 
Location: the AZ desert
5,037 posts, read 7,448,478 times
Reputation: 8246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
I don't think this is right. Just because an admitted majority of a population believes something does not make it right. A move towards the "center" by people who believe in certain ideals means abandoning those ideals. I will not accept that.

What I see more clearly is that the other side has done a good job of typifying and compartmentalizing conservative ideals, and that some ignorant conservatives have added fuel to the fire. For instance, what the hell is legitimate rape? There is no representation of a conservative view there. I reject that idea as hard as any of you do.

There are many things that require compromise to accomplish, and I am more than willing to accept that. But there are some things where compromise results in abandoning principals. I would rather forever be in the minority than to do that. Just remember, that as convinced as you are that you are right, I am just as convinced that I am. Majority rule doesn't change that.

I predict that in the future, the democrats and liberals will continue to gain a majority of the population and vote. That is something that I will live with. However, I also think that an entitlement society cannot sustain itself forever, and change will be forced on your side too once harsh realities are realized. Until then, you win, and I will continue to vote for what I believe this nation was founded upon: The idea that each person is responsible for their own destiny, that hard work pays off, and that the government should protect it's people, not control them.
Excellent post!
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:36 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,048,183 times
Reputation: 17978
So why are democrats always whining about their situation. yopu have what you created and conservtive only have what they created. You may have a pipe dream that the rich are goig to make you equal in wealth but that si a dream./The world itself does work that way and never has.Face it the US is dropig ineduation and many other areas.That justmight oif you look explain why the wealth spread is larger. Even the chinese peasant is gaining on most americans.Some need to lookj in the mirror to see who is causing that.
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