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Maybe they wouldn't deflect as much if people such as your self wouldn't blatantly criticize Russia about everything, and instead point out at least one good thing and build off of that. People are much more responsive if you tell them that they are good at something but could be even better if they did this, than if you tell them that everything they are doing is bad and wrong.
The notion that i criticize Russia about everything is something they made up. Don't remember ever suggesting that Russia was responsible for all ills. On every occasion, they stopped the conversation when it didn't go there way. I could understand their point if I was posting silly memes that made fun of Russia. I criticize Russia for it's role in Ukraine, which is obvious. I mentioned on multiple occasions that the west plays a role in the conflict as well, but since that is the common point, then why dwell on it. They believe that Russia is entirely innocent.
This is a public forum, not some "yes man" propaganda tool. Scratt and erasure are fine with discussions only to the extent that it serves their need.
Positives about Russia? Sure I'll mention some of them, though i'm not sure how they relate to the conflict in the Ukraine.
-Impressive cities like Moscow, St Petersburg
-Lots of historical places
-Interesting culture
-Good public transportation system
-Soviet space program
-Works of literature (Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky...)
-Ballet (don't really care about this, but it's still an important element)
An annexation of Malorossia (DNP+LPR)by the Russian Federation is imho the only logical thing . I don't understand why it's not already made. And the Ukies shoukd not complain : they still have northern Donbass (Slaviansk) and the Odessa region where there are a lot of ethnic Russians. So the neo nazi Ukies should at last shut the **** up.
The notion that i criticize Russia about everything is something they made up. Don't remember ever suggesting that Russia was responsible for all ills. On every occasion, they stopped the conversation when it didn't go there way. I could understand their point if I was posting silly memes that made fun of Russia.
Arms sales, lack of freedom press... You talk in stereotypes, and it's boring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident
I criticize Russia for it's role in Ukraine, which is obvious. I mentioned on multiple occasions that the west plays a role in the conflict as well, but since that is the common point, then why dwell on it. They believe that Russia is entirely innocent.
The fault lies on the initiator. Russia did what the great power was supposed to do. And even much less.
The notion that i criticize Russia about everything is something they made up. Don't remember ever suggesting that Russia was responsible for all ills. On every occasion, they stopped the conversation when it didn't go there way. I could understand their point if I was posting silly memes that made fun of Russia. I criticize Russia for it's role in Ukraine, which is obvious. I mentioned on multiple occasions that the west plays a role in the conflict as well, but since that is the common point, then why dwell on it. They believe that Russia is entirely innocent.
This is a public forum, not some "yes man" propaganda tool. Scratt and erasure are fine with discussions only to the extent that it serves their need.
Positives about Russia? Sure I'll mention some of them, though i'm not sure how they relate to the conflict in the Ukraine.
-Impressive cities like Moscow, St Petersburg
-Lots of historical places
-Interesting culture
-Good public transportation system
-Soviet space program
-Works of literature (Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky...)
-Ballet (don't really care about this, but it's still an important element)
Ok fair enough, so what would you say is one good that Russia has done in the current conflict in Ukraine, or one good thing it has done towards Ukraine in the resent past? For instance, at least from a Ukrainian perspective, not annexing Donbas. And in the recent past, Russia supplied Ukraine with cheap gas and bought a lot of Ukrainian products, for instance many of Russia's military hardware was produced in Ukraine.
Arms sales, lack of freedom press... You talk in stereotypes, and it's boring.
Never mentioned 'freedom of press"
As to arm sales, I think you misunderstood what I meant by it. I wasn't criticizing the fact that Russia sells weapons, since every major power does that, but the idea that the economy is not diverse enough.
Quote:
The fault lies on the initiator. Russia did what the great power was supposed to do. And even much less.
An annexation of Malorossia (DNP+LPR)by the Russian Federation is imho the only logical thing . I don't understand why it's not already made. And the Ukies shoukd not complain : they still have northern Donbass (Slaviansk) and the Odessa region where there are a lot of ethnic Russians. So the neo nazi Ukies should at last shut the **** up.
Of course Ukraine would have the right to complain!! What if Chechnya, Dagestan, Tatarstan, Baskortestan, Yakutia, Tuva, Karelia, Kaliningrad etc. all were taken, wouldn't you complain? If Russia annexes Donbas than there is no chance for Russia and Ukraine to be friends again in the future, is this what you really want? However from an objective point of view it would be in Ukraines best interest to get rid of Donbas, one they wouldn't have to pay for all the repairs, and two it would be much easier to elect anti Russian candidates, it would actually be in Russia's best interest for Donbas to remain in Ukraine to insure that Ukraine still has pro Russia politicians.
Ok fair enough, so what would you say is one good that Russia has done in the current conflict in Ukraine, or one good thing it has done towards Ukraine in the resent past? For instance, at least from a Ukrainian perspective, not annexing Donbas. And in the recent past, Russia supplied Ukraine with cheap gas and bought a lot of Ukrainian products, for instance many of Russia's military hardware was produced in Ukraine.
I don't think either Russia or the West has really done much good for the Ukraine. There is obviously a historical link between the two nations, however one of the biggest problems is that a number of Russians do not recognize the Ukraine as an independent state and still view it as part of their sphere of influence. It would be like if the UK still latched onto Canada or Australia.
On a personal note, the reason why I have trouble taking the Russian side seriously comes from the tactics used on forums. Whenever someone criticises Russia, that person authomatically gets labelled dumb, clueless. Then there is the constant deflection, where everyone who dislikes Russia gets funded by outside sources. That is the pinnacle of a black and a white mentality if you ask me. At least those who criticise Russia come up with constructive criticism (see Ariete, greg94, DKM...).
The Russians were spoon fed with this rhetorical methodology, so if you make a reasonable argument their counter arguments will always be:
1) “What about the" EU, US, West, Merkel, Obama etc.
or
2) Some strange article written in Cyrillic on a news site controlled by a close friend of Putin.¨
You cannot discuss whether something is right/wrong or fair/unfair, because they will call you are a hypocrite and change the subject until your original argument was avoided/forgotten. They are allergic to the idea that Russia is doing something wrong. Deep down, they probably know, but *brrr* what a disgusting thought to harbour.
There is a reason why this thread is nearly 1100 pages long. A lot of people including me have tried to discuss Ukraine, but we have all been met with a brick wall of stupidity and stubbornness. Instead, just lean back like most of us and enjoy the thread. I mean, it is condensed Russian propaganda straight out of Kremlin. It’s a fun read.
The Russians were spoon fed with this rhetorical methodology, so if you make a reasonable argument their counter arguments will always be:
1) “What about the" EU, US, West, Merkel, Obama etc.
or
2) Some strange article written in Cyrillic on a news site controlled by a close friend of Putin.¨
You cannot discuss whether something is right/wrong or fair/unfair, because they will call you are a hypocrite and change the subject until your original argument was avoided/forgotten. They are allergic to the idea that Russia is doing something wrong. Deep down, they probably know, but *brrr* what a disgusting thought to harbour.
There is a reason why this thread is nearly 1100 pages long. A lot of people including me have tried to discuss Ukraine, but we have all been met with a brick wall of stupidity and stubbornness. Instead, just lean back like most of us and enjoy the thread. I mean, it is condensed Russian propaganda straight out of Kremlin. It’s a fun read.
You're right it is a really long thread. I'm pretty new to this site so I didn't read most of the earlier comments but I can only imagine what kind of cauldron it was.
Most of the time I just lean back like you said, but sometimes the stupidity is too hard to ignore. Half of the statements that they accuse me of saying are complete bogus.
According to some of them: Criticizing Russia = It's all Russia's fault
I don't think either Russia or the West has really done much good for the Ukraine. There is obviously a historical link between the two nations, however one of the biggest problems is that a number of Russians do not recognize the Ukraine as an independent state and still view it as part of their sphere of influence. It would be like if the UK still latched onto Canada or Australia.
Doesn't the U.K. Still latch onto Canada and Australia still though, after all they still have Elizabeth II as their queen, a bit unusual don't you think? But anyway I get what you are saying, and I think it's sad. Russia and Ukraine should view each other as equals. Also as a friendly suggestion, it's just Ukraine not "the" Ukraine. A lot of Ukrainians get hung up by that, if you say "the" it means you don't recognize it as a sovereign nation, but just a region, a border land.
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