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( But of course, if to believe Western media, these are all "busloads of Russians that Putin sends across the border.")
And why not?
"Many Russian neo-Nazis openly admire Adolf Hitler and use the German Nazi swastika as their symbol. Russian neo-Nazis are characterized by racism, antisemitism, homophobia, Islamophobia and extreme xenophobia towards people from Asia. Their ideology centers on defending Russian national identity against what they perceive as a takeover by minority groups such as Jews, Caucasians, homosexuals, Central Asians, Roma people, Poles, and Muslims.
Russian neo-Nazis have made it an explicit goal to take over the country by force, and have put serious effort into preparing for this. Paramilitary organizations operating under the guise of sports clubs have trained their members in squad tactics, hand to hand combat and weapons handling. They have stockpiled and used weapons, often illegally"
"Many Russian neo-Nazis openly admire Adolf Hitler and use the German Nazi swastika as their symbol. Russian neo-Nazis are characterized by racism, antisemitism, homophobia, Islamophobia and extreme xenophobia towards people from Asia. Their ideology centers on defending Russian national identity against what they perceive as a takeover by minority groups such as Jews, Caucasians, homosexuals, Central Asians, Roma people, Poles, and Muslims.
Russian neo-Nazis have made it an explicit goal to take over the country by force, and have put serious effort into preparing for this. Paramilitary organizations operating under the guise of sports clubs have trained their members in squad tactics, hand to hand combat and weapons handling. They have stockpiled and used weapons, often illegally"
And "why not" what?
If Russians want to protest their own Nazis ( I mean it's not like Russia has ANTIFA for nothing,) they don't need to come to Ukraine for that, they'd have plenty to do in this respect in Russia.
Russia in this respect has a problem identical I'd say to Ukraine. As soon as the "liberals" ( and that's what pro-Maidan Ukrainians really are as well) so as soon as the "liberal opposition" in Russia stages the anti-Putin protests, the Russian nationalists with their banners walk side by side with them.
And that's exactly what I see happening in Ukraine.
So sure, Russians and Ukrainians are sooooo damn different.
I think this quote from the article is very informative (I have boldfaced what I think is the best part):
"Svoboda’s success over the past few years and the presence of neo-fascist groups such as Pravy Sektor in Independence Square are signs of a crisis in Ukrainian society. It is first and foremost a crisis of identity: in 22 years of independence, Ukraine has not managed to develop an unbiased historical narrative presenting a positive view of all its regions and citizens: even today, the Ukrainians are seen as liberators in Galicia but as fascists in Donbass."
And "why not" what?
If Russians want to protest their own Nazis ( I mean it's not like Russia has ANTIFA for nothing,) they don't need to come to Ukraine for that, they'd have plenty to do in this respect in Russia. Russia in this respect has a problem identical I'd say to Ukraine. As soon as the "liberals" ( and that's what pro-Maidan Ukrainians really are as well) so as soon as the "liberal opposition" in Russia stages the anti-Putin protests, the Russian nationalists with their banners walk side by side with them.
And that's exactly what I see happening in Ukraine.
So sure, Russians and Ukrainians are sooooo damn different.
It only makes sense to me to think thay there may be loads of Russians selling themselves as Ukrainian Nazis throughout Ukraine as a part of Russian propaganda to justify their actions in Crimea and to create a chaos throughout the country.
Just like those "Ukrainian self-defence forces" that occupaid Crimea Just like you say: "...they don't need to come to Ukraine for that..."
The WIKI link you posted about the Right Sector says "The organization has 5,000 members..."
5,000 member out of 45 million Ukrainians! It's not like every second Ukrainian is a Right Sector member.
Look, I don't want to argue, but one link from youtube (or more links from youtube showing crowds chanting something) simply won't do! And you know that perfectly well, don't you?
Everybody posts here all kinds of links, showing things from different angles according to what they think and believe.
But that's 5,000 members ( whose number keeps on growing according to WIKI) of openly NAZI organization, but how about the NAZI-lite, Svoboda party ( the other major player in the events,) - is it also "only 5,000 members" or what?
Of course the Russin speakers in the East have legitimate concerns for what's coming, while the West keeps on vehemently denying their concerns. Why? Because it doesn't serve their agenda well.
Quote:
Look, I don't want to argue and I understand what you're saying. However, one link from youtube (or more links from youtube showing crowds chanting something) simply won't do! And you know that perfectly well, don't you?
No, it's the other way around. I prefer to not to follow the media any longer - because I've never seen Western media being so full of bias - and that goes to Reuters and BBC including. And obviously, I am not interested to listen to any of Putin's channels. That's why I simply go to You-tube and look what people post there. It gives me much better picture.
Quote:
Everybody posts here all kinds of links, showing things from different angles according to what they think and believe.
But that's 5,000 members ( whose number keeps on growing according to WIKI) of openly NAZI organization, but how about the NAZI-lite, Svoboda party ( the other major player in the events,) - is it also "only 5,000 members" or what?
Of course the Russin speakers in the East have legitimate concerns for what's coming, while the West keeps on vehemently denying their concerns. Why? Because it doesn't serve their agenda well.
Erasure, I agree with you that there may be a reason for concerns. Moveover, I'd say, if this is the case, not only Russian speaking population but the whole population of Ukraine should be concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
No, it's the other way around. I prefer to not to follow the media any longer - because I've never seen Western media being so full of bias - and that goes to Reuters and BBC including. And obviously, I am not interested to listen to any of Putin's channels. That's why I simply go to You-tube and look what people post there. It gives me much better picture.
I also agree with media. However, all those people on youtube may be brainwashed, as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
Femen are idiots to begin with, why should I even bother?
They may be idiots, but unlike most other idiots, at least they look good, are creative and are probably non-violent.
It only makes sense to me to think thay there may be loads of Russians selling themselves as Ukrainian Nazis throughout Ukraine as a part of Russian propaganda to justify their actions in Crimea and to create a chaos throughout the country.
Wait, what are you saying, that it's Russians who are coming to Ukraine and pretend to be Nazis? Yeah right.
Russian nazis have different agenda, they are too busy with their own "goals."
Quote:
Just like those "Ukrainian self-defence forces" that occupaid Crimea Just like you say: "...they don't need to come to Ukraine for that..."
You know that Crimea is "Ukrainian" in the name only, don't you? ( that's if we all are going to be honest here.)
The Ukraine has a dark history....First it was Stalin who was actually not even a Russia who created a policy that robbed Ukraine of it's food. Ukraine was non-compliant towards the original communist doctrine and Stalin....made sure that he starved over 16 million of them to death...My mother told me stories of her as a young girl trying to keep her dying father alive with grass.....THEN later the Germans invaded the place during WW2.... So NOW between Russia their old abuser ....and Germany their other old abuser....and ironically Germany controls the EU....WELL it would be best for the Ukraine NOT to be seduced by the EU or by Moscow....Maybe it is time that they stood on their own?
I agree maybe it is time they stood on their own. The reason why they have trouble standing on their own is they have the misfortune of being geographically located between 2 much larger political entities competing for influence. If they decide to stand on their own they must decide to suffer some severe economical pain because of the debt load of their government. They are not the only country unique in that circumstance, even the United States has a serious debt problem that is going to catch up with them in the future. The question is do they want to take IMF and EU loans and have those entities dictate how they suffer along the lines the way similar to Greece, Bulgaria and Latvia or just default on their debts and endure hyperinflation and suffer like Iceland and Argentina. Personally if you are going to suffer you might as well get it over as quickly as possible so i would prefer to default. Since they produce a lot of food the Ukraine government could confiscate the food supply due to emergency of the situation to make sure their citizens doesn't starve. I think the average Ukrainian is lured by glamour and wealthy standards of living enjoyed by many citizens of the EU and they want to enjoy the same which leads me to believe they are going be seduced by the EU and have the EU dictate to their government.
Last edited by Coseau; 03-08-2014 at 12:59 PM..
Reason: spelling
The worst and most immature idiotic commentary on the net flows from Utube...It is absolutely the worst! The visuals on Utube are highly informative...the rest can go in the garbage. There is still a strong ignorance in the west regarding Ukraine...and Russia.. The culture and language is almost indistinguishable. The worst perspective and attitude that watchers of this situation can have is that Russia is some stranger entering with force in the the Ukrainian national household...It's more like a big brother dominating the younger sibling.
What most do not realize about Russia and the Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet Empire ....is that like before there is an institutional poverty that exists and has always existed. The primary gripe Ukraine has as does the rest of the Russian population - is that their lot in life is boarder line poverty or full blown dire straights...This is about having a real un-corrupted government...and it is about money and simple creature comforts...The drab shadow of old communism is like a scar that will not fade. It is going to take a decade or so for Russia and the Ukraine to over come the curse of godless communism...
Look at the visuals and the infrastructure...everything is still substandard..The Ukraine like Russia is developmentally decades behind...I noticed this with Russian immigrants and their kids trying to be cool....We as a pop culture were role modeling after Madonna at that time...and their teenagers were dressing like Alice Cooper....What ever goes on in the west...remember that Russia and the Ukraine are twenty years in the past...It will take them time to catch up if you know what I mean...They are poor and backward.
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