The future of Ukraine (2014, country, train, people)

[Ariete]

Originally Posted by Atai J.

This maidan who burned people alive?

What?

Maidanisti, Sotnii: 109 dead, 1900 wounded
Berkutskiy, Titushky: 17 dead, 230 wounded

[erasure]

Originally Posted by jeffpv

Fact Sheet
Office of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
April 13, 2014
“No amount of propaganda can make right something that the world knows is wrong.”
– President Obama, March 26
Russia continues to spin a false and dangerous narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine. The Russian propaganda machine continues to promote hate speech and incite violence by creating a false threat in Ukraine that does not exist. We would not be seeing the violence and sad events that we've witnessed this weekend without this relentless stream of disinformation and Russian provocateurs fostering unrest in eastern Ukraine. Here are 10 more false claims Russia is using to justify intervention in Ukraine, with the facts that these assertions ignore or distort.
1. Russia Claims: Russian agents are not active in Ukraine.
Fact: The Ukrainian Government has arrested more than a dozen suspected Russian intelligence agents in recent weeks, many of whom were armed at the time of arrest. In the first week of April 2014, the Government of Ukraine had information that Russian GRU officers were providing individuals in Kharkiv and Donetsk with advice and instructions on conducting protests, capturing and holding government buildings, seizing weapons from the government buildings’ armories, and redeploying for other violent actions. On April 12, armed pro-Russian militants seized government buildings in a coordinated and professional operation conducted in six cities in eastern Ukraine. Many were outfitted in bullet-proof vests, camouflage uniforms with insignia removed, and carrying Russian-designed weapons like AK-74s and Dragunovs. These armed units, some wearing black and orange St. George’s ribbons associated with Russian Victory Day celebrations, raised Russian and separatist flags over seized buildings and have called for referendums on secession and union with Russia. These operations are strikingly similar to those used against Ukrainian facilities during Russia’s illegal military intervention in Crimea in late February and its subsequent occupation.

Let's see here...

Fact; The US spent $ 5 billion within 20 years to install a government in Ukraine, promoting American interests in the area, aiming to hurt Russian interests - a trend that the US clearly set in post - Soviet period. At that, the economic well-being of Ukrainians and improvement of their lives overall was never a priority of the US government (again- hurting Russian interests was the main goal,) and today's popularity of the US-installed government (i.e. Timoshenko) back in Orange Revolution times testifies to that. In fact, if anything else, the lives of average Ukrainians ( and those living in the East of the country in particular) took turn for worse when they've tried to limit their economic ties with Russia.

2. Russia Claims: Pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kyiv.
Fact: This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protestors to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life.

While indeed "hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians" who gathered on Maidan were "from all walks of life," saying that they "came from all parts of of the country" wouldn't be quite correct, because the overwhelming majority of these people came from Western/Central areas of Ukraine, not the South-Eastern parts of it.
Therefore what State Department states here is not a "fact" but rather propaganda.

Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence. There is evidence that many of these so-called “protesters” are paid for their participation in the violence and unrest. It is clear that these incidents are not spontaneous events, but rather part of a well-orchestrated Russian campaign of incitement, separatism, and sabotage of the Ukrainian state.
Ukrainian authorities continue to arrest highly trained and well-equipped Russian provocateurs operating across the region.

If Ukrainians were unanimously happy with the change of government and the direction to which the new government is taking them, no Russian "provocateurs" and no money would have made them to participate in mass protests that we've recently seen in the South-East of the country.
So again the US gov is presenting us not with fact but propaganda.

3. Russia Claims: Separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine enjoy broad popular support.

Fact: The recent demonstrations in eastern Ukraine are not organic and lack wide support in the region.

Again - claiming that something is not "organic" - is not a fact but propaganda.

A large majority of Donetsk residents (65.7 percent) want to live in a united Ukraine and reject unification with Russia, according to public opinion polls conducted at the end of March by the Donetsk-based Institute of Social Research and Policy Analysis.

Interestingly enough, PM Tsarev (who was beaten up yesterday by the mob in Kiev,) representing the interests of Eastern regions came to talk there about just that - the necessity to remain a united country. The violent reaction of pro-Maidan crowd was quite telling about on what conditions they see this unification to be fit. Since this aspect is clearly missing from the US gov equation, it's pushing propaganda, disguised as "facts."

Pro-Russian demonstrations in eastern Ukraine have been modest in size, especially compared with Maidan protests in these same cities in December, and they have gotten smaller as time has progressed.

Pro-Russian demonstrations took place in different cities, where in case of Maidan everyone came to one place. Besides, Eastern Ukrainians didn't have such paramilitary organization as Pravy Sector, that was getting ready for the events already quite some time; the disorganized protests that Eastern Ukraine came up with, were far more spontaneous reaction to events in Kiev.

4. Russia Claims: The situation in eastern Ukraine risks spiraling into civil war.
Fact: What is going on in eastern Ukraine would not be happening without Russian disinformation and provocateurs fostering unrest.

Says who?
Trying to convince anyone who is remotely familiar with Ukraine, that a country that traditionally had such a huge rift in terms of history/economy/culture, that recently went through turmoils with presidential elections twice, because of the clash of interests between the East and the West of the country, that such country all of a sudden miraculously came to unanimous decision, during the next forceful change of the government, means not "presenting with "facts," but pushing propaganda in its classical form. Such propaganda of course might work well for gullible Americans, who have hard time locating Ukraine on the map, but not to Russians, who are familiar with the country. So yes, civil war is quite possible there and that is not to say that Russia will not get involved with providing training/equipment and what's not, but to say that it will happen "because of Russia" is again - just pushing anti-Russian, or rather pro-American propaganda in this case. Because with the US/NATO meddling in Ukrainian affairs, Russian involvement is only natural. And that includes not only governmental level, but citizens level as well.

It would not be happening if a large Russian military force were not massed on the border, destabilizing the situation through their overtly threatening presence.

That would be "threatening to Kiev"; why would the "separatists" feel threatened by the presence of the Russian army on the border?

There simply have not been large-scale protests in the region. A small number of separatists have seized several government buildings in eastern cities like Donetsk, Luhansk, and Slovyansk, but they have failed to attract any significant popular support. Ukrainian authorities have shown remarkable restraint in their efforts to resolve the situation and only acted when provoked by armed militants and public safety was put at risk. Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) observers have reported that these incidents are very localized.

OK, the repetition of the same propaganda that if "it were not for Russians," everyone in Ukraine would have happily agreed what Kiev backed by the US/NATO is dictating to them.

5. Russia Claims: Ukrainians in Donetsk rejected the illegitimate authorities in Kyiv and established the independent “People’s Republic of Donetsk.”

Fact: A broad and representative collection of civil society and non-governmental organizations in Donetsk categorically rejected the declaration of a “People’s Republic of Donetsk” by the small number of separatists occupying the regional administration building. These same organizations confirmed their support for the interim government and for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

You mean the "non-government organizations" paid and supported by American dollars? Lol.

6. Russia Claims: Russia ordered a “partial drawdown” of troops from the Ukrainian border.
Fact: No evidence shows significant movement of Russian forces away from the Ukrainian border. One battalion is not enough. An estimated 35,000-40,000 Russian troops remain massed along the border, in addition to approximately 25,000 troops currently in Crimea.

I suspect Putin enjoys the show. Yes, it's a fact.

7. Russia Claims: Ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.
Fact: There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine.

Sure, as long as Russians support what Kiev says. The treatment of Tzarev yesterday, who dared to express a different point of view was quite "credible" to me how ugly things might get on this front. Interestingly enough - not a whimper about this case on CNN or any other American major news sites. European media reports it, "alternative sources" report it, but CNN-ABC, what do you know? Can we spell "propaganda" yet again and what serves it well and what does not.

International Republic Institute poll released April 5 found that 74 percent of the Russian-speaking population in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine said they “were not under pressure or threat because of their language.” Meanwhile, in Crimea, the OSCE has raised urgent concerns for the safety of minority populations, especially ethnic Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, and others. Sadly, the ethnic Russians most at risk are those who live in Russia and who oppose the authoritarian Putin regime.

Oh quit being such hypocrites already; you know who was authoritarian ruler BEFORE Putin usurping all the presidential power ( and hence being able to pass this power to Putin.) Yep, Yeltsin. But this "authoritarian ruler" was all right in the eyes of American gov, since he was willing to serve American interests.

8. Russia Claims: Ukraine’s new government is led by radical nationalists and fascists.
Fact: The Ukrainian parliament (Rada) did not change in February. It is the same Rada that was elected by all Ukrainians, comprising all of the parties that existed prior to February’s events, including former president Yanukovych’s Party of Regions.

Right, but that doesn't mean that the Nationalists in Rada became more vocal now, setting the tone. The recent beating of the head of Parlaimentary Communist party in Rada by the Nationalists was quite telling on that front. Yet try to find anything on this subject in American media - good luck with that. So again - not just "fact," but a good dosage of propaganda.

9. Russia Claims: Ethnic minorities face persecution in Ukraine from the “fascist” government in Kyiv.
Fact: Leaders of Ukraine’s Jewish as well as German, Czech, and Hungarian communities have all publicly expressed their sense of safety under the new authorities in Kyiv.

Hello, these people live in predominantly Western part of Ukraine ( Jews excluding of course,) - the part that has supported the overthrowing of the government, that served the interests of Eastern regions primarily.

Moreover, many minority groups expressed fear of persecution in Russian-occupied Crimea, a concern OSCE observers in Ukraine have substantiated.

Nah, not there, not now. Crimea is going to be Putin's show case, lol.

10. Russia Claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.
Fact: Following Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80 percent in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11 billion in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords. Russia’s moves threaten to increase severely the economic pain faced by Ukrainian citizens and businesses. Additionally, Russia continues to restrict Ukrainian exports to Russia, which constitute a significant portion of Ukraine’s export economy.

And why would Russia be willing to sponsor American/NATO interests in the area at her own expense?
Is it the kind of honesty that the US gov is demanding from Russia, that Russia is doing something that serves her financial interests, rather than defending some altruistic motives? The US gov. would demand something like that out of all governments in the world? Lol that's too funny.
Of course Russia is using her leverage in economy with the country ( sorry, hypothetical country, because obviously Ukraine historically being part of Russia has always been dependent on Russia in this respect.
Couldn't the US/EU figure such simple things out?
So of course Russia is using energy and trade as a leverage against undesirable government, it's probably the only "fact" on this "Fact Sheet" - the rest is mostly propaganda.

If I am not interested in listening to Putin's propaganda, that doesn't mean that American propaganda is somehow more appealing to me.

[Coseau]

The funny thing is even with all the anti-Russian propaganda in the American media most people here could care less what happens over in Ukraine. To most Americans the Ukrainians and Russians look the same and their language sound the same so its difficult to distinguish who is who. After being told we are helping to bring freedom and democracy to places like Iraq and Afghanistan and seeing how that turned out its kinda difficult to galvanize mass public enthusiasm for foreign intervention in other nations on the other side of the world. We even had a local right wing radio host angrily complaining that we can easily find a billion dollars to give to the Ukrainians but can not get a dime from the federal government to help build a replacement bridge for an obsolete one over the Ohio river.

[Maksim_Frolov]

Russian joke that soon the state border will be closed and rest in Courchevel and Nice will have to be replaced to rest in the village (Russian "dacha"). Men agree. The "dacha" has a friends, borscht, vodka and barbecue. Girl do not agree.

(Russian language, obscene lexicon)

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Coseau

The funny thing is even with all the anti-Russian propaganda in the American media most people here could care less what happens over in Ukraine. To most Americans the Ukrainians and Russians look the same and their language sound the same so its difficult to distinguish who is who. After being told we are helping to bring freedom and democracy to places like Iraq and Afghanistan and seeing how that turned out its kinda difficult to galvanize mass public enthusiasm for foreign intervention in other nations on the other side of the world. We even had a local right wing radio host angrily complaining that we can easily find a billion dollars to give to the Ukrainians but can not get a dime from the federal government to help build a replacement bridge for an obsolete one over the Ohio river.

Obviously the approach of people to this issue differs.
Some say "let's stay out of it, it's EU's problem," some are beating the drums of war ("time to show Russia who is the boss,") and some are pointing at the bridges in need of replacement.
But to me as I've said this whole situation is like a run-away train.

P.S. When I've said in my previous post "Right, but that doesn't mean that the Nationalists in Rada became more vocal now, setting the tone," I meant to say that the Nationalists in Rada became more vocal of course.

Obviously Il Duce knows what party line everyone should adhere to.

Tyagnibok demands Ukrainian CEC remove Tsarev from list of presidential candidates | Vestnik Kavkaza

Another interesting point - when they were trying to accuse Tsarev recently that he was inviting Russian troops to Ukraine, he reminded them that the first initiative to invite foreign troops to Ukraine has been vocalized by Klitshko on Maidan, while he (Tsarev) never suggested such thing.

[GreyKarast]

Russia Claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.
Fact: Following Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80 percent in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11 billion in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords. Russia’s moves threaten to increase severely the economic pain faced by Ukrainian citizens and businesses. Additionally, Russia continues to restrict Ukrainian exports to Russia, which constitute a significant portion of Ukraine’s export economy.
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Funny, but only Russia over the past couple of years, supported by the Ukrainian economy $ 35 billion . 23 years Ukraine with savings through savings of $ 100 billion .Russia that year bought Ukrainian credit paper 3 billion dollars and she bought them at market value in order to support the economy of Ukraine . and so that Ukraine could pay debts for gas . However , Ukraine did not. Since the Russian Crimea now , of course Russia now wants to return the $ 11 billion (it was an advance)that was paid in advance for the presence of the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea. Russia did the same discount of $ 100 for each cubic meter of gas (because of the use of the base in the Crimea ) .Ukraine under the contract for the first quarter was supposed to pay the lowest price , but Ukraine did not pay all exactly . According to the agreement which was signed in 2009, Tymoshenko and her minions today (this they signed the treaty and it was then considered a very profitable). said . If Ukraine does not pay the debt for gas to Gazprom to 7 of each month. That GAZPROM has the right to turn off the gas and further deliveries until payment on the front . Ukraine violated all obligations under the contract . What would you have done in the U.S., when a person or company should not be a contract ? Even so, Russia has still not turned off the gas . Today, only Russia still supports the economy of Ukraine financially investing billions of dollars. West and EU only feeds promises and does not provide real help. Putin sent personal letters to the 18 EU countries who consume Russian gas. In requesting assistance affect the U.S. and Ukrainian authorities to resolve the issue and payment of debts. That threatens to destabilize Ukraine uninterrupted supply to Europe and asked to solve the problem with the payment of debts for gas. Otherwise, Russia has the right to turn off the gas . know who responded to Putin's personal letters ? USA. But Putin did not write a letter to the United States . U.S. has no connection with the gas to Ukraine and Europe. EU pledged on Monday to resolve the issue for the debts of Ukraine on Monday and give the answer. But already Wednesday and there is still no answer . But Russia still supplies gas .If not fulfilled obligations under the contract at any one person or company with such people will not work. So do not be hypocritical . U.S. place of Russia turned off the gas would still early in the year .

[Muscovite]

So it makes sense to try to encourage ethnic Russians to move into Russia itself.

Yes, and perhaps those Ukrainians who would like to do this. On paper it sounds good, but will somebody seriously do it, I'm not sure.
I mean, not several people asking for our citizenship, but real program.

[Muscovite]

Because with the US/NATO meddling in Ukrainian affairs, Russian involvement is only natural.

Ok. And so we annexed the peninsula. But Donetsk district isn't an isolated territory. And in Kharkiv a lot of people don't like the idea of changing the citizenship.

And why we should do this? Our rivals will have an opportunity to present themselves as victims in the eyes of Europeans. We will get a region with a lot of problems. Coal miners in our country also don't live well.

From Ukraine said that she doesn't mind losing Donetsk and doesn't want to live with them in one country. So, we should act CONTRARY. This region will be a pain in the *ss of the new government. Great! It will be their problems. People there will be protesting constantly as far as the ecomomic sitautation will get worser.

That's more cunning.

[Maksim_Frolov]

As I understand it, the Ukrainian army did not want to fight and now massively over to the side of the separatists?

[Mac15]

I think soon someone is going to get a good kick up the arse...

And we all know what country that is going to be...