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In Krakow as elsewhere they arrested and shot many Poles who fought in anti nazi resistance groups. I'm sure they would just love hearing from a Russian telling them they should be grateful for 50 years of murderous oppression.
In Krakow as elsewhere they arrested and shot many Poles who fought in anti nazi resistance groups. I'm sure they would just love hearing from a Russian telling them they should be grateful for 50 years of murderous oppression.
You are incorrigible, DKM... as usual blah, blah, blah...
It was the Polish United Workers Party who rebuilt Warsaw. Russia brought theft of assets, shortages, lines for toilet paper, death squads and more. How ungrateful the Poles are for not thanking Russia for all that.
Poland destroyed after the war. The USSR was recovering very hard after the war. Poland does not have rich natural resources (compared to the USSR). However, Poland managed to restore Warsaw. You write that it was a donation of citizens. Of course it was, but only partially. Stalin ordered the restoration of Warsaw and assistance to the population. In 1944-1955, good help was provided. Hundreds of tons of food, tens of thousands of livestock, machinery, clothing, medical supplies, roads and bridges. Despite the fact that the USSR had not yet completed the war at that time.
Poland has no right to make any moral charges. Poland made peace with Germany in 1934. Germany, Austria and Poland received parts of the territory during the partition of Czechoslovakia in 1938. Poland is not a victim, it is an active player who bet on the wrong horse.
Nevertheless, the Soviet Union collaborated with the communist part of Polish society. It was not a theft. It was help and mutually beneficial cooperation.
No. 61
Protocol No. 28 of 9 and 12 Jul 1
61.0
Resolution of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU
"On providing economic assistance to the Polish people's Republic" a
P 28/I July 9, 1956
Strictly secret
Approve the draft resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR on Dan<
issue and draft letter from the Central Committee of the CPSU to the Central Committee
Polish United workers ' party (attached).
RGANI. F. 3. Op. 14. D. 41. L. 1. Original.
61.0.1
Appendix 1
To the point I prot. No. 28
Project
Resolution of the SM USSR
"On providing economic assistance to the Polish people's Republic
Moscow, Kremlin [July 9, 1956] b
Confidentially
In connection with the request Of the government of the Polish people's Republic
on providing economic assistance to Poland Council of Ministers of the USSR
decides:
1. Provide the following economic support to the Polish people's Republic<
help:
a) to deliver an additional 2 thousand tons of copper to Poland in 1956,
5 thousand tons of natural rubber and 10 thousand tons of technical fat on
the total amount of 43.5 million rubles.;
1956 359
and the Resolution was prepared and presented by: N. S. Khrushchev, N. A. Bulganin,
K. I. Koval, N. K. Baibakov, V. M. Molotov, D. T. Shepilov, G. M. Malenkov,
M. G. Pervukhin.
b is Dated by the date of the meeting of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU on July 9, 1956.
dock. 61.0.
b) provide the government of Poland with 12.6 tons of gold in 1956<
that cost 56.5 million rubles.
Delivery of goods and provision of currency to make on credit from
2% per annum with repayment in equal annual installments in 1957–
1960 supplies of Polish goods;
C) give consent To the government of Poland to reduce by
810 million rubles of payments to the Soviet Union in 1957-1960 in pogash<
nie loans granted by the Soviet Union under agreements on
delivery of industrial equipment to Poland on credit from 26 Jan<
RYA 1948 and 29 June 1950 and on the delivery of military equipment on credit
June 29, 1950.
Reduction of payments made in 1957-1960 by 202.5 million rubles<
lei per year.
Establish that the repayment of the specified amount of 810 million rubles BU<
det produced by the government of Poland in 1961-1965 equal
in annual instalments.
Due to a decrease in Poland's loan repayments
Gosplan of the USSR, the state economic Commission of the USSR and the Ministry of foreign Affairs<
the Ministry of trade plans for 1957-1960 to provide for a reduction in
supply of Polish goods to the USSR or increase in the supply of the Soviet Union<
goods to Poland against the quantities taken in the calculations for the
five-year plan for the development of the national economy of the USSR
preliminary negotiations with representatives of the Polish storo<
upon;
d) give consent To the government of Poland for loans,
granted to Poland in 1947 and 1949 in gold and silver
currency repaid starting in 1957, not in gold or free currency
currency, as provided for in the agreements, and the supply of Pol<
goods.
2. Oblige ministries < suppliers to ship in 1956 for<
KAZ<orders of the Ministry of foreign trade for delivery to Poland
in excess of the quantities provided for export:
Ministry of non-ferrous metallurgy of the USSR — 2 thousand tons of copper per year
by reducing supplies to the state reserve;
The Ministry of industry of food products
USSR — 10 thousand tons of industrial fats (hydrogenated fats), allowing this
to the Ministry to spend for production of the specified quantity
salomas 11 thousand tons of vegetable oil at the expense of superplanned production<
residues and residues in the industry;
Ministry of foreign trade — 5 thousand tons of natural rubber<
ka from import receipts by reducing this amount
return of natural rubber to the state reserve;
The Ministry of Railways to provide at the request of the Ministr<
terstv<suppliers of railcars for transportation of Poland listed
goods'.
3. Oblige the Ministry of Finance of the USSR and the Ministry of internal Affairs<
rennih Affairs of the USSR to allocate the state Bank of the USSR in 1956<
12.6 tons of pure gold for transfer to the Polish government<
to the government.
360 Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU. 1954-1958
4. Instruct the Ministry of foreign trade to sign with Pol<
party to the agreement arising from this agreement<
lenia2
.
Chairman
Council of Ministers of the USSR N. Bulganin
Business manager
Council of Ministers of the USSR A. Korobov
RGANI. F. 3. Op. 14. D. 41. L. 6-7. Original.
61.0.2
Appendix 2
Project
N. S. Khrushchev's letter to the Central Committee of the porp
on providing economic assistance to Poland
[July 9, 1956] a
Out of turn
Warsaw Mosol
Visit the companion Ahab and give him the following message
N. S. Khrushchev:
"Central Committee of the Communist party of the Soviet Union
Union, having considered the request of the Central Committee of the Polish Union<
nenna working party on the provision of Poland's immediate economic
assistance, made a decision that has already been issued by the resolution
Of the Council Of Ministers of the USSR, put in addition to Poland in
1956 in thousands of tons: copper-2, rubber-5, technical fats —
10 with a total cost of about 43.5 million rubles; transfer to the Polish PRA<
in total, 12.6 tons of gold for 56.5 million rubles.
The specified deliveries of goods and the provision of gold are available in
payment is made on the terms of a loan of 2% per annum with repayment
supplies of Polish goods in 1957-1960 years in equal annual
shares.
It was also decided to meet the request of the Central Committee of the porp and the Polish
the government on the postponement of repayment of loans from
January 26, 1948 and June 29, 1950 in the amount of 810 million rubles
instead of 1957-1960 for 1961-1965 and on repayment of debts<
ti for loans dated March 5, 1947 and September 3, 1949, granted<
gold in the amount of 73 million rubles as of January 1
1957, deliveries of Polish goods instead of repayment in currency and
gold.
Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee N. Khrushchev " 3
RGANI. F. 3. Op. 14. D. 41. L. 8. Certified copy.
1956 361
a is Dated by the date of the meeting of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU on July 9, 1956.
dock. 61.0.
61.0.3
[Annex 3]
Note by N. K. Baibakov, P. V. Nikitin and K. I. Koval on the issue
providing economic assistance to Poland
July 9, 1956
Confidentially
CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE CPSU
In accordance with the instruction, at the request of the Polish government
we present proposals for providing economic assistance to Poland.
1. Polish comrades are asked to urgently put goods on credit or
provide a loan in free currency for 100 million rubles. For this amount
they mean to get: copper - 2 thousand tons, natural rubber<
go — 5 thousand tons, fine wool-3 thousand tons, Egyptian cotton —
5 thousand tons, jute-3 thousand tons, leather-8 thousand tons, technical<
go fat — 10 thousand tons and igelita - 2 thousand tons.
The proposals submitted include:
request from Poland for the supply of copper, rubber and technical
fat in the requested quantities and the allocation of 12.6 tons of gold for<
acquisition of other goods in capitalist countries.
Deliveries of goods from the USSR and the provision of gold are offered
make a loan of two percent per annum with repayment in 1957–
1960 supplies of Polish goods.
2. Poles are asked to postpone the period of poga from 1956-1960 to 1961-1965<
payment of half of the debt in the amount of 810 million rubles, formed at the beginning
1956 on commodity and military loans granted to Poland from<
proclamations of March 5, 1947, January 26, 1948, and June 29, 1950.
We consider it possible to meet the request of the poles for the transfer
repayment period of the loan in the amount of 810 million rubles from 1957-1960
1961-1965.
The acceptance of this proposal means that in 1957-1960, we
we will have to pay this amount or increase our deliveries of goods to
Poland, Polish or decrease shipments to the Soviet Union against the calculations
Gosplan of the USSR to the five-year plan.
3. Poles are asked to consent to the repayment of loans provided by<
Poland in 1947 and 1949 in gold and free currency, delivered<
kami goods instead of gold or free currency, as provided<
Reno agreements.
We consider it possible to give consent to the repayment of the balance owed<
as of 1.1.1957 in the amount of 73 million rubles and interest for use<
nie credit supplies of Polish goods instead of repayment in gold
or free currency.
The draft resolution is attached
.
N. Baibakov
P. Nikitin
K. Koval
RGANI. F. 3. Op. 12. D. 78. L. 8-9. Original.
Russians just don't value human life. This isn't about what building was rebuilt by whom, it's about soviet Russians who murdered and enslaved many thousands of Poles and still don't accept their crimes.
Russians just don't value human life. This isn't about what building was rebuilt by whom, it's about soviet Russians who murdered and enslaved many thousands of Poles and still don't accept their crimes.
While it's true that value of human life ( historically so) is much lower in Russia than in Western countries ( starting from certain point in time,) you are still missing a bigger picture.
Check the birth rates of Poles ( and practically any other Socialist country under Soviet commandment), and you will discover - surprise-surprise, that they are much higher than in post-Socialist Poland, "protected by the West," and their demographics overall are on much safer side than under the "American protection."
Which indicates, that in spite of all their brutality, Russians really never meant to destroy all these people.
They kept them under their thumb so to speak for centuries, yet at the same time were making sure that all these people ( the Poles, the Bulgarians etc,) would always be around, keeping their identity and language ( same as with other ethnicities inside Russia.)
So if all the charges against Russians that Poles are recently drumming up were true, there would be simply no one around left speaking Polish ( Lithuanian/Estonian) and so on, in post-Soviet times to proceed with *independence.*
So overall, the role of Russia was/is to carefully preserve the leftovers of the "old world" in Europe, and the more time is progressing, the more it becomes clear that this extends not only to EASTERN Europeans, but WESTERN Europeans as well, starting with Germans ( and proceeding to French/ Italians and whoever else.)
Because the economic policies that US is pushing more and more on these people, is destructive for them in the long run, so Russian presence makes sure that the US actions are counter-balanced.
Now the latest actions of Polish government, directed at discrediting Russia and attempting to re-write history ( history of the WWII in particular) can be easily understood in the context of justifying the aggressive NATO stand against Russia in Europe, particularly keeping in mind growing German/Franco-Russian alliance. ( Ditto Italy is very interested in those ties as well from economic point of view.)
Because if it can be proved somehow that Russia "was the aggressor on par with Hitler initiating the WWII," and the takeover of Crimea is the "prelude to the next aggression," then the "fears of Balts and Poles" demanding the increased presence of NATO/US in Europe are well justified.
Otherwise, it becomes more and more difficult to keep the conflict going. ( Trump already pointed at this discrepancy, and rightfully so - "why spend money on defenses in Europe, when Germans trade right and left with the *aggressor* - i.e. the Russians.)
So this partially explains why Poland was behind the push for Ukraine to "join European Union," and yet again, when you look at Ukrainian demographics, you can clearly see the difference, what happens to them before and after Russian dominance, in spite of all the accusations in "holodomor" and what's not.
Birth rates are lower in the in every country in the world since the 70s and 80s. That's not a stat to point to the wonders of socialism or the benefits of Soviet rule. And I'm sure you can find an exception to that but it's still a ridiculous argument to make.
Russians just don't value human life. This isn't about what building was rebuilt by whom, it's about soviet Russians who murdered and enslaved many thousands of Poles and still don't accept their crimes.
Oh, stop, this is a very simplistic view. Russians carried the idea of ​​communism. Change of elites and social system always generates repression. But the problem is that the repression was often carried out by local residents, local communists. It was in Ukraine, it was in Poland. Poland wants to forget about it and make Russia the sole enemy. Perhaps this is required to destroy the ideas of communism (communism is a very strong and very dangerous thing for capitalists). But this is more a propaganda than a real study of history and attempts to understand what really happened.
It's fair to say that certain Poles took advantage of the situation to gain power there, but communism was imposed by the Kremlin and maintained through force by the Red Army. Not denying that some Poles supported this position as well.
The current situation is not helped by Russia saying Poland shares responsibility for the beginning of the war. This is why relations can't be rebuilt like they have been with Germany.
Birth rates are lower in the in every country in the world since the 70s and 80s.
Yes they gradually declined in Western Europe as well, but for different reasons, whereas in post-Soviet countries you see the unmistakable sudden drop in birth rates between the end of the eighties and the mid of the nineties, with very few exceptions.
Quote:
That's not a stat to point to the wonders of socialism or the benefits of Soviet rule. And I'm sure you can find an exception to that but it's still a ridiculous argument to make.
It's only a "ridiculous argument" for someone who does not understand the cultural patterns of Eastern Europeans, when it comes to the creation of the family, the roles of men and women there, when it comes to child raring and so on.
So birth rates can be easily manipulated there, with the removal of the social security net.
Which was precisely what happened with destruction of the Socialist system ( and even earlier, with declining living standards in Soviet Union, that peaked ( the living standards that is ) around the seventies.
The rest was the chain reaction that followed.
The Western researches refer to it as the "fertility puzzle" apparently...
"Fertility has unanimously declined across the entire post-communist region. This study explores the variation in fertility trends over time among these countries and assesses to what degree three explanations are applicable: second demographic transition (SDT), postponement transition (PPT) or reaction to the economic crisis."
But for Putin who lived through Soviet times it ain't a puzzle any longer.
He already realized by now that if his government will continue to pursue the ultra-right economic policies, the demographic decline ( i.e. drop of the birth rates) in Russia will continue. Particularly now, that the most deprived and the least numerous generation of the nineties is coming in the child-bearing age now.
And that's what all this today's hoopla, all this "reorganization of the government and its priories" is all about.
But I am not sure how much these artificial measures can revert the situation by now.
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