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If we are going down the route of judging a man based upon the looks of his wife, then I state that I judge men who will marry women who are dependents. I would rather see a man with an overweight woman who is his equal and partner than with a dependent.
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Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor
Uhhh, OK. Good for you.
I find it amusing that you apparently don't "get" what randomlikeme is saying. I understand it perfectly.
You seem to think that a "trophy wife" (a wife who doesn't do anything and never has) is something to be proud of, like a status symbol, just as long as she is smoking hot.
I do believe that some men think this, especially young men who are primarily focused on appearance and hotness.
But it doesn't follow that all men think this, nor does it mean that other women will honestly admire such a man for getting his empty-headed trophy wife.
Yes, I said "empty headed." No, not all women who have never had a job are empty-headed. Everyone is different. But there are women out there who depend on their beauty and haven't felt the need to develop anything else. They marry because of their beauty, and that works for a while, but sooner or later it becomes obvious to anyone not dazzled by their beauty that this is all they've got. And, that they've chosen this. They watch mindless TV and never read. They don't pursue hobbies or take extra classes because they're boring or they take too much patience and diligence. But they're beautiful! What else is there! And their husbands don't care at all that their wives don't seem interested in any kind of career or personal development. Or at least the husbands don't care at first. Sometimes after a while it starts to become a bit sad and pathetic and the aging process is not good for the woman, unless she starts to change and grow.
We can't all be created equal, and everyone's life is different, but when I see someone who can kill time in bars or spends their spare time on activities that are time-wasters that don't create any long-lasting growth in a person, there's something wrong with that. And if someone looks at a man with that kind of wife, and ONLY sees her beauty and admires the man based on that alone, without even acknowledging that there ought to be something more there... there's something wrong with that too.
My definition of a Trophy Wife is the fellow must be a good bit older (say at least 12 years) and wealthy enough to afford her living a life of casualness. More then likely she will be smallish, thin, very pretty and work at maintaining such. She drives a new SUV. Works out at the gym/spa daily. Lunches with like lifestyle women. Shops at Whole Foods. She will also have a nanny for any kids.
A lower income man marrying his local high school girl friend who stays home and spits out babies is not my definition of a Trophy Wife. I would call it a Burden Wife...........LOL
Have you ever asked yourself why you ask yourself this? Do you think that on some level it is a result of your own limited understanding of attraction? (NOTE: That is not meant as an insult, even though it sounds like one. It is meant as a question: Have you considered your understanding of attraction is limited?)
No, I think my understanding of attraction is sufficient. As I mentioned earlier, we're all different and we like what we like. I get that. At the same time, we also have tastes that are almost universal. How many people don't like pizza? It's much the same with beauty. So, there's a natural curiosity from the rest of us. How could anyone find this woman attractive when virtually everyone else finds her repulsive? Kind of like asking the question: "Why eat chopped liver if you can have prime rib"?
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Originally Posted by iknowftbll
I can assure you nothing is or ever was wrong with me. I've never been a bum, and never supported by any of my partners. Again, I'd challenge you to consider you've not fully explored the idea of attraction. I am a reasonably attractive guy (never had issues dating/attracting women), have always had a job/career, have a master's degree, etc. I'm married now, and my wife has steadily lost weight. I'm as attracted to her as I ever was. But when she was at her peak weight, I was attracted then as I ever was. We're all wired a little differently.
I think it is a fair question, though I think the degree to which you make your claim is greatly overstated. FWIW, I'm one of those guys who has passed on more than one fit woman to pursue a bigger woman. I'd dated everything from exotic dancer to BBW and enjoyed it all.
I think people have an obligation to be true to themselves. When my wife was at her peak weight, I loved it. But she didn't. Had she announced to me out of the blue that she was learning to love herself as she was and it wasn't so bad being at her weight, and if her husband loves her like that it was good enough for her, then I would have been thrilled. Instead the closest I ever got to hearing that was a moment of frustration when she said, "I give up. I hope you meant it when you said you love me at this weight because you're stuck with a fat wife now." When I heard that part of me wanted to jump for joy, but the part of me that actually thinks and cares knew this was a bad thing. I knew she didn't want that for herself. She wanted to lose weight and now she has. She did it because she wanted to. Had she wanted to say at her highest weight I would have been fine with that. I'm very proud of her, though because she did what she wanted and needed to do for herself.
That was a long way of answering your question, but in essence, a person's first obligations are to themselves. This is not to say I support being selfish. But if one is not true to himself/herself, to what extent can they be trusted to be true to others?
Please understand, this isn't a personal discussion. I'm sure you're not a bum, you just have what society would consider odd taste. I believe society looks down on men who date large women. I'm just trying to offer some insight as to why that might be.
Why did y'all settle for "less than ideal"? That's illogical to me. There was a time, when I was in college, when my girlfriend (at the time) told me that her ideal man was tall, dark and British. Well, I'm tall... and I have British heritage... but I'm damn near ghost-white. So I said "Well, I'm only one of the three, so what are you doing with me?" Her response: "Oh, that's just a fantasy. You're my reality."
I dumped her the next day.
I'm not trying to accuse you of anything but anytime a person has settled for "less than ideal" in the looks department, it's been for one of the following reasons:
1) lack of sufficient self-confidence to believe that he/she can land "the ideal"
2) belief that the person's other qualities will overshadow the less than ideal looks (been there, done that... but it never worked, at least not for me)
3) truly feeling that looks are not important (which may be true if you're blind, but beyond that, I haven't known anyone who felt that way)
Maybe it's just that I feel highly enough about myself that I always felt I deserved to be seen as physically ideal by one woman. I couldn't care less if any other women see me as such... but as long as my wife does, we're good.
I don't know what criteria you used to choose your wife. From what you're saying, it would seem strictly on appearance. When I chose my wife, I was looking for a lifetime partner, not just a fantasy girl to look at. As such, I had to consider everything about her. She's beautiful, but she isn't perfect. I can't imagine why you would find this illogical. I've never met anyone who married someone strictly because they were physically ideal for them.
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
I never said that these other nations were bastions of Western culture. It's not about the pervasion of Western culture; it's about the influence of Western culture. Are other factors at play? Sure. This is a very complex issue that probably will never be resolved no matter how much it is studied. But you have to look at what men value in a woman, in order to figure out why they like the body types they like. For example, in Japan, men seem to be valuing youthful appearances. Being fat wouldn't necessarily work with this type of taste. In America, it's all about looking like celebrities. (Heck, I just read an article about how there is a burgeoning business in America catering to women who want bigger butts... because of celebrities like Jennifer Lopez, Kim Kardashian, and Nicki Minaj who are flaunting their big butts. I told my wife yesterday that for the money these people are paying for butt-enhancement surgery and padded pants, she obviously has a million-dollar butt already!)
However, it wasn't always this way. Not long ago, fat women were preferred in America as well as in Britain because being fat meant that she came from a family wealthy enough to afford to feed her well. When wealth is the most important thing, then the evidence thereof will be seen as most attractive. I haven't studied this in depth but I have read a few studies about it.
My point was that these nations are not influenced much by Western culture yet still have the same disdain for obese women. Thus, disproving your claim.
I find it amusing that you apparently don't "get" what randomlikeme is saying. I understand it perfectly.
You seem to think that a "trophy wife" (a wife who doesn't do anything and never has) is something to be proud of, like a status symbol, just as long as she is smoking hot.
I do believe that some men think this, especially young men who are primarily focused on appearance and hotness.
But it doesn't follow that all men think this, nor does it mean that other women will honestly admire such a man for getting his empty-headed trophy wife.
Yes, I said "empty headed." No, not all women who have never had a job are empty-headed. Everyone is different. But there are women out there who depend on their beauty and haven't felt the need to develop anything else. They marry because of their beauty, and that works for a while, but sooner or later it becomes obvious to anyone not dazzled by their beauty that this is all they've got. And, that they've chosen this. They watch mindless TV and never read. They don't pursue hobbies or take extra classes because they're boring or they take too much patience and diligence. But they're beautiful! What else is there! And their husbands don't care at all that their wives don't seem interested in any kind of career or personal development. Or at least the husbands don't care at first. Sometimes after a while it starts to become a bit sad and pathetic and the aging process is not good for the woman, unless she starts to change and grow.
We can't all be created equal, and everyone's life is different, but when I see someone who can kill time in bars or spends their spare time on activities that are time-wasters that don't create any long-lasting growth in a person, there's something wrong with that. And if someone looks at a man with that kind of wife, and ONLY sees her beauty and admires the man based on that alone, without even acknowledging that there ought to be something more there... there's something wrong with that too.
I find it equally amusing that you think I don't get what she's saying. I understand both of you, but you seem to be missing the point of the thread. We're discussing whether "society", as a whole(not EVERYONE), looks down on men who date larger women, not whether I do or not. In reply, the two of you have gone on these defensive tirades about "dependent" women. I just don't care to offer any meaningful response to this.
I find it equally amusing that you think I don't get what she's saying. I understand both of you, but you seem to be missing the point of the thread. We're discussing whether "society", as a whole(not EVERYONE), looks down on men who date larger women, not whether I do or not. In reply, the two of you have gone on these defensive tirades about "dependent" women. I just don't care to offer any meaningful response to this.
You seem to think that "society" has a hive mind.
Much of society values education and having some sort of identity, rather than indulgent idleness. I think most women do, unless they themselves aspire to trophy wife status.
I realize that some men think that as long as a woman is thin and beautiful, nothing else is looked for or expected of her. Some men base their relationships on that alone. I realize that a lot of society values thinness. But it doesn't mean that a lot of society also values empty-headed, indulgent idleness, which is what a "trophy wife" is. What I think most of society values is that women be capable and beautiful. Not just beautiful. And, some of society, especially when they mature, realize that attractiveness rates lower than being capable, because attractiveness fades, but being capable carries you through your entire life. Show me someone at age 50, 60, or 70 who is still obsessing on looks and nothing else, and I'll show you someone who is pitied and laughed at. And also miserable.
BTW just a point of clarity, I wouldn't call all women who don't have jobs to be trophy wives, or "dependent" wives. If a woman devotes herself passionately to all the homely arts, like sewing, cooking, gardening, all sorts of skills that require dedication to excel at, as well as taking good care of her kids, then she's developing herself and also doing a valuable work at home. That isn't the same as the trophy wife who maybe does minimal house work but mostly indulges herself and stays hot (her primary "job").
No, I think my understanding of attraction is sufficient. As I mentioned earlier, we're all different and we like what we like. I get that. At the same time, we also have tastes that are almost universal. How many people don't like pizza? It's much the same with beauty. So, there's a natural curiosity from the rest of us. How could anyone find this woman attractive when virtually everyone else finds her repulsive? Kind of like asking the question: "Why eat chopped liver if you can have prime rib"?
Maybe those "universal tastes" aren't as universal as you've been led to believe. "Virtually everyone" does not find overweight women repulsive. Some do, some are indifferent, and others find them attractive. Weight is like any other physical feature. Some like blondes, some like a certain ethnicity. And some like girls who carry extra weight. Perhaps a natural curiosity is fair, but likes and dislikes are often not rational. There sometimes isn't any better answer to the question, "why do you like ____" than, "I don't know, I just do."
Quote:
Please understand, this isn't a personal discussion. I'm sure you're not a bum, you just have what society would consider odd taste. I believe society looks down on men who date large women. I'm just trying to offer some insight as to why that might be.
I understand this, but rather than take society's word for it I choose to think for myself. Society's tastes are irrelevant to me. If you want insight into why society considers attraction to overweight women "odd" I'll give it to you. It has nothing to do with natural curiosity. It has everything to do with a lack of respect for others and a failure to recognize another person's preference as legitimate. Many say "to each his own" but few actually mean it.
Maybe those "universal tastes" aren't as universal as you've been led to believe. "Virtually everyone" does not find overweight women repulsive. Some do, some are indifferent, and others find them attractive. Weight is like any other physical feature. Some like blondes, some like a certain ethnicity. And some like girls who carry extra weight. Perhaps a natural curiosity is fair, but likes and dislikes are often not rational. There sometimes isn't any better answer to the question, "why do you like ____" than, "I don't know, I just do."
To equate liking/disliking obese women to a blonde/brunette preference is absurd. While most people may have a preference on hair color, they don't find another's preference strange or irrational. You don't see the difference? And yes, society in general does in fact find obese women repulsive. You don't have to believe me. Just take your wife to the beach in a bikini and ask for some honest feedback. It'll be virtually unanimous.
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