What makes New England different? (high school, standard of living, fences)

[LINative]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

True, New Netherland is the "correct" name but New Holland has a better sound to it, and has been used occasionally (just as Holland is sometimes used rather than The Netherlands).

It's funny that people always disagree when I say NJ is part of Southern New England but NJ history is completely intertwined with that of its New England neighbors.

We VT'ers beat the NY'ers to the land, from a New England state (one my family helped create), NH. NY as New Netherland never had claim to the land until they were controlled by the British and were in search of more land to settle. The Green Mountain Boys were freedom fighters. The Indians' claims weren't respected by either side anyways. Good thing we had Ethan Allen too, I like the greater level of freedom in VT, but I wish he had prevailed later on and we never became a state. I do believe our war is what ended any claim NY had on being part of New England. Culturally the two states are not very much alike other than some small rural parts of Northern NY.

Governor Kunin (a flatlander as we call them) wanted to turn VT into a big park in fact...so we got rid of her and elected a real VT'er (who unfortunately died in office and left us with Governor Dean).

Keep in mind to the victors belong the spoils and so it is with history. The United Provinces of the Netherlands were a wealthy trading nation in the 1600s but they are small and ultimely could not compete with both England on the sea and France on the land and so were gradually worn down.

Here in the Northeast, the Dutch set up forts and trading posts to trade with the Indians for furs. On the North River (Hudson River) they had Fort Orange (Albany) in 1617 and Fort Amsterdam (NYC) in 1625. On the South River (Delaware River) they had at first several failed attempts, noteably at Lewes, Delaware (Zwaanendael).

And on the East River (Connecticut River) they had Fort Goede Hoop or Fort Good Hope (Hartford) by 1623. So the Dutch were already trading on and exploring the Connecticut River before the English ever got there.

The problem is that New Netherland and even to some extent New York Province was less populated than the other colonies. The early history of New York is one of constantly surrendering territory to more populated colonies.

As for Vermont, it took until the 1780s for New York to accept they were not going to get the territory back. At one point New York teamed up with Massachusetts to make sure that New Hampshire did not get Vermont either. Its interesting how the states used to use diplomacy before the civil war.

So Vermont, the 14th state was born in 1791 way back when George Washington was President.

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by Verseau

What on Earth is "dated" about my maps and information? Aside from the map of ethnic groups of colonial settlement areas, all of my data is current. And in case you didn't notice, the OP asked about the cultural characteristics of New England, which can't be extrapolated by just throwing out as many demographic maps as possible. I was born and raised in New England, and have lived and traveled outside of the region enough to understand what elements of the culture unify and distinguish New England from the rest of the country. A degree in geography does not make you an expert in the history or sociology of New England.



This is true, but what's your point? Many Americans don't understand the concept of "England" vs. "Great Britain" vs. the "United Kingdom", but what bearing does this misconception have on the reality of things? None.



What support do you have for this claim? You recognize that New Englanders themselves strongly associate with citizens of the other New England states, and yet you call the region a "historical carryover"? If a cultural region isn't defined by self-indentification, then how is it defined? Moreover, there is nothing "historical" about the current recognition of the region by the U.S. Census Bureau, the Federal Reserve System, and the Office of Management and Budget, not to mention a plethora of other government and non-government organizations and corporations.



I certainly recognize the divide between the more rural northern New England and the more urban southern New England. But urban/rural divides exist in every cultural region of the United States. The bottom line is that, on a cultural level, stripping away any aspects of lifestyle that can be attributed solely to living in an urban environment or a rural environment, someone in Massachusetts has more in common with someone in Maine than they do with someone in New York, and this is widely recognized by natives.



In my original post, I did not address the problematic case of Connecticut. While once solidly culturally part of New England, the expansion of the NYC metro area into the state has imported a culture distinct to that city and its sphere of influence. However, the extent of this cultural sphere does not reach across the entire state; it is largely confined to the southwestern corner.

Observe this map from the CommonCensus Map project, which asks respondents to indicate the large city that they most identify with:



You'll see that the vast majority of New Englanders identify themselves with Boston, which is still the economic and cultural hub of the region. The cultural divide running through Connecticut is also apparent here.

If you visit the CommonCensus website, you'll see respondents' answers to the question: "On a global level, what three geographic areas do you most identify with?", ranked in order of strongest identification to weakest identification.

Interestingly, "New England" shows up fairly high in the "#1 Choice for Identity" column, with 367 respondents. The only regional identity ranked higher is "Midwest," with 690 respondents. However, taking into consideration the ratio between the two populations - New England with about 14 million people and the Midwest with about 65 million - the New Englanders' regional identification has the strongest weight of any on the list.



With a degree in geography, I'm incredibly surprised that you're making this argument based on a map that oversimplifies and obscures the complex reality of ancestry groups in New England.

First of all, the claim that people of English ancestry are "ghosts of the past" in southern New England is laughable. While people of Irish and Italian ancestry do dominate the cities and their immediate suburbs, the county-wide categorizations in the Census map completely mask the extent of English ancestry in the less populated towns. Here's a map of dominant ethnic groups by town in Massachusetts (Historical Atlas of New England, Wilkie and Tager):



Notice that Wilkie and Tager do one important thing that the Census Bureau doesn't: collapse "French" and "French-Canadian" ancestry into one group. Many New Englanders of French-Canadian ancestry aren't sure about their heritage or will simply mark "French" when in reality, the vast majority of people of French heritage in New England are descendants of Québécois immigrants.

Taking this into consideration, a re-drawn map based on the same Census data looks dramatically different:



Still, this county-wide categorization really obscures what's going on.

I took it upon myself to draw a map similar to Wilkie and Tager's for New Hampshire based on Census data, and here is the result:



The extent of towns with dominant English ancestry is in fact arguably smaller than in Massachusetts due to the very large French-Canadian population.

However, the most important point is that even at the town level, we are not seeing the full picture. We are not dealing with "blocs" of ethnic groups in New England; the top ancestry group in a given town usually leads by one or two percentage points, with the four "big" groups - English, French-Canadian, Irish, and Italian - usually pretty comparable in every single town. The same holds true for southern New England.



Again, no one is arguing against these points, but what evidence do you have that these demographic features really indicate such a radical cultural divide? Diversity correlates directly with population density, and the same is basically true in every other region of the northern United States. You seem to be arguing that just because Boston has more minorities than say, Manchester, New Hampshire, that it is culturally more similar to New York City or Philadelphia. Moreover, I would argue that if you remove the top couple of most populated cities in each New England state, they are all very close in terms of a high percentage of white population.



Now you've completely lost me here. How is the social, cultural, economic and regional influence of New England not relevant in metro Boston or Providence? These places contribute largely to defining that very influence. Northern New England looks to Boston and Providence for economic opportunities and cultural trends, not to New York City.



I know you're obsessed with the climate of southern New England, but the OP was asking about the cultural characteristics of New England, not the climactic characteristics.

Well let’s take these one at a time…
I was ALSO was born and raised in New England (Connecticut – but I say I was born in the Tri-State area – NOT New England), and have lived and traveled outside of the region extensively for 25 years. In my travels, time and time again…I have seen a deliberate attempt by Northern New Englanders (VT, NH, ME, northern MA) to try to smother and stamp out the fact that parts of Massachusetts/Rhode Island…and especially Connecticut…have little or “NOTHING” in common with isolated Northern New Englanders. This fact seems to steam those in VT, NH, and ME a great deal (lol).

First of all…if you’re trying to stick to the OP’s question…”What are the cultural characteristics of New England”…the maps YOU pasted are totally misleading. English/Yankee New England culture, traditions,etc… have little to do with the population today in large parts of MA and RI…and NOTHING to do with the cultural traditions of most people in Connecticut. Period. Next, the difference in rural Northern New England and urban Southern New England is not just a difference of urban vs rural areas. The social, racial, ethnic, and religious diversity, even in the suburban areas of places like CT and parts of RI/MA… is “ significantly different” than in places like VT, NH, ME and you full well know it. Your comment that someone living in Massachusetts has more in common with someone in Maine may be just a stretch of reality…but is a laughable comment in terms of Connecticut: I have lived in CT…and share NOTHING in common with someone from Maine or VT: I root for NY sports teams, go into Manhattan regularly, have friends in NYC, have been to the New Jersey shore…etc…yet I have never stepped foot in Maine (in fact, I have never been north of Rhode Island in 30 years).

Your comment “the extent of this cultural sphere of NY does not reach across the entire state (CT); it is largely confined to the southwestern corner”…shows the narrow attitude that isolated Northern New England people are famous for: I live in rural EASTERN CT and most of my family has lived in rural northern CT and could care less about what goes on in VT, NH, ME. Your map of what city people in New England identify with is misleading. It really only shows that most people north of CT identify with Boston…the only really big city north of NYC (lol). I’m not sure what that is supposed to tell us? Most people I know in CT know NYC the best, then Boston…and could care less about the cities north of Boston.

Next, I can perceive the anger in you that the people of English ancestry are "ghosts of the past" in southern New England. The Irish and Italian cultural imprint on CT and RI, and to a lesser degree MA is NOT “just in the cities and their immediate suburbs” as you claim. The Irish and Italian communities “blow the doors off” those of English ancestry in terms of political influence, business owned, and cultural influence in southern New England…especially CT. The large Hispanic, African American, Jewish, Middle Eastern, Asian, as well as the large numbers of Irish, Italian, polish, Russian, and Portuguese in Connecticut and in parts of MA/RI…could “care less” about English/Yankee traditions, cultural history, …etc. Sorry if that rattles the stiff shirts up north.

Finally…I am not “obsessed” with the climate of southern New England…I just stated a scientific fact. Unfortunately …some folks are greatly rattled when their false view of the world is shattered.

[MassVt]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Well let’s take these one at a time…
I was ALSO was born and raised in New England (Connecticut – but I say I was born in the Tri-State area – NOT New England), and have lived and traveled outside of the region extensively for 25 years. In my travels, time and time again…I have seen a deliberate attempt by Northern New Englanders (VT, NH, ME, northern MA) to try to smother and stamp out the fact that parts of Massachusetts/Rhode Island…and especially Connecticut…have little or “NOTHING” in common with isolated Northern New Englanders. This fact seems to steam those in VT, NH, and ME a great deal (lol).

First of all…if you’re trying to stick to the OP’s question…”What are the cultural characteristics of New England”…the maps YOU pasted are totally misleading. English/Yankee New England culture, traditions,etc… have little to do with the population today in large parts of MA and RI…and NOTHING to do with the cultural traditions of most people in Connecticut. Period. Next, the difference in rural Northern New England and urban Southern New England is not just a difference of urban vs rural areas. The social, racial, ethnic, and religious diversity, even in the suburban areas of places like CT and parts of RI/MA… is “ significantly different” than in places like VT, NH, ME and you full well know it. Your comment that someone living in Massachusetts has more in common with someone in Maine may be just a stretch of reality…but is a laughable comment in terms of Connecticut: I have lived in CT…and share NOTHING in common with someone from Maine or VT: I root for NY sports teams, go into Manhattan regularly, have friends in NYC, have been to the New Jersey shore…etc…yet I have never stepped foot in Maine (in fact, I have never been north of Rhode Island in 30 years).

Your comment “the extent of this cultural sphere of NY does not reach across the entire state (CT); it is largely confined to the southwestern corner”…shows the narrow attitude that isolated Northern New England people are famous for: I live in rural EASTERN CT and most of my family has lived in rural northern CT and could care less about what goes on in VT, NH, ME. Your map of what city people in New England identify with is misleading. It really only shows that most people north of CT identify with Boston…the only really big city north of NYC (lol). I’m not sure what that is supposed to tell us? Most people I know in CT know NYC the best, then Boston…and could care less about the cities north of Boston.

Next, I can perceive the anger in you that the people of English ancestry are "ghosts of the past" in southern New England. The Irish and Italian cultural imprint on CT and RI, and to a lesser degree MA is NOT “just in the cities and their immediate suburbs” as you claim. The Irish and Italian communities “blow the doors off” those of English ancestry in terms of political influence, business owned, and cultural influence in southern New England…especially CT. The large Hispanic, African American, Jewish, Middle Eastern, Asian, as well as the large numbers of Irish, Italian, polish, Russian, and Portuguese in Connecticut and in parts of MA/RI…could “care less” about English/Yankee traditions, cultural history, …etc. Sorry if that rattles the stiff shirts up north.

Finally…I am not “obsessed” with the climate of southern New England…I just stated a scientific fact. Unfortunately …some folks are greatly rattled when their false view of the world is shattered.

I'm breathlessly awaiting your earth-shattering report, complete with graphs and pie charts, demonstrating that Minnesota is colder than Miami. I know that you won't disappoint, because you'll feel obligated to tell all of us...until you're blue in the face.........something we already know.

It's time for you to migrate south, along with the other "weather wimps", because "birds of a feather flock together", and you are one odd duck.

Take your graphs, and your extremely weird agenda, and fly south for the winter.

[kidyankee764]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

English/Yankee New England culture, traditions,etc… have little to do with the population today in large parts of MA and RI…and NOTHING to do with the cultural traditions of most people in Connecticut. Period. Next, the difference in rural Northern New England and urban Southern New England is not just a difference of urban vs rural areas. The social, racial, ethnic, and religious diversity, even in the suburban areas of places like CT and parts of RI/MA… is “ significantly different” than in places like VT, NH, ME and you full well know it. Your comment that someone living in Massachusetts has more in common with someone in Maine may be just a stretch of reality…but is a laughable comment in terms of Connecticut: I have lived in CT…and share NOTHING in common with someone from Maine or VT: I root for NY sports teams, go into Manhattan regularly, have friends in NYC, have been to the New Jersey shore…etc…yet I have never stepped foot in Maine (in fact, I have never been north of Rhode Island in 30 years).

Your comment “the extent of this cultural sphere of NY does not reach across the entire state (CT); it is largely confined to the southwestern corner”…shows the narrow attitude that isolated Northern New England people are famous for: I live in rural EASTERN CT and most of my family has lived in rural northern CT and could care less about what goes on in VT, NH, ME. Your map of what city people in New England identify with is misleading. It really only shows that most people north of CT identify with Boston…the only really big city north of NYC (lol). I’m not sure what that is supposed to tell us? Most people I know in CT know NYC the best, then Boston…and could care less about the cities north of Boston.

As someone who was born and raised in CT, I'll second this. Most CT folks call NYC "the city" even if they live in the center of the state 70-80 minutes away. The vibe that pulsates from NYC is so strong that the Manhattan culture is alive and well right up to the RI border.

Many, many CT residents I know never take day trips to Boston, or go there for any significant reason. I lived in CT for approximately 25 years and have been to Boston maybe five times. Why, you ask? Because anything you can get in Boston, you can get ten fold in NYC. And NYC is much closer, with mass transit (Metro North Rail) to take us right into Grand Central. Most small towns in southern and western CT have their own little stations.

Of course there are a number of CT residents who dislike NY sports teams and will do their best to associate themselves with Boston. They are truly in the minority, however. I've come into contact with many Bostonians and northern New Englanders who tease that CT is not really New England, even though it certainly is.

CT is very much the rat-race that is the NYC metro. New England in look, but New York City suburban in feel.

[Verseau]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Well let’s take these one at a time…
I was ALSO was born and raised in New England (Connecticut – but I say I was born in the Tri-State area – NOT New England), and have lived and traveled outside of the region extensively for 25 years. In my travels, time and time again…I have seen a deliberate attempt by Northern New Englanders (VT, NH, ME, northern MA) to try to smother and stamp out the fact that parts of Massachusetts/Rhode Island…and especially Connecticut…have little or “NOTHING” in common with isolated Northern New Englanders. This fact seems to steam those in VT, NH, and ME a great deal (lol).

I hate to break it to you, but I've only lived in New Hampshire for the past 10 years of my life. I was born and raised in suburban southeastern Massachusetts near the border with Rhode Island, where my mother's family is from (Central Falls).

I acknoweldge the cultural differences between northern and southern New England; I've made that clear. But you're the one making the absurdly hyperbolic claim that the two regions have little or NOTHING in common with each other.

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

First of all…if you’re trying to stick to the OP’s question…”What are the cultural characteristics of New England”…the maps YOU pasted are totally misleading. English/Yankee New England culture, traditions,etc… have little to do with the population today in large parts of MA and RI…and NOTHING to do with the cultural traditions of most people in Connecticut. Period.

First of all, which of my maps says anything about English or Yankee culture and traditions? The only one with any relation to the topic is the map of colonial settlement groups, which was intended to explain the initial geographic disconnect from other cultural regions of the colonies. No one argues that New England did not develop differently from the other regions of the early United States, culturally, economically, etc.

However, I find your claim that the original English settlers did absolutely nothing to define the culture of modern-day southern New England to be pretty remarkable. How do you explain the observations about sociological behavior common to all areas of New England that are continually made by other Americans? I suppose the early New Englanders' values of self-reliance, industry, quality education, and social tolerance have completely vanished from southern New England? And that's to say nothing of interpersonal interactions and ways of using language.

Your assertions have pretty important implications as well. Are we to suggest that when diverse immigrant groups arrive in a given area, they do not adopt any characteristics of the local culture? Are primarily Irish or Italian communities in the South more similar to Irish and Italian communities in New England than they are to other Southern communities?

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Next, the difference in rural Northern New England and urban Southern New England is not just a difference of urban vs rural areas. The social, racial, ethnic, and religious diversity, even in the suburban areas of places like CT and parts of RI/MA… is “ significantly different” than in places like VT, NH, ME and you full well know it.

Of course I do. Did I ever deny that fact? But my point stands. How exactly does the diversity of an area automatically make it more similar to other diverse areas than to less diverse areas to which it has much, much stronger historical links?

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

I have lived in CT…and share NOTHING in common with someone from Maine or VT: I root for NY sports teams, go into Manhattan regularly, have friends in NYC, have been to the New Jersey shore…etc…yet I have never stepped foot in Maine

I don't think vacation spots have much to do with cultural identity, but I do recognize the growing influence of NYC culture in Connecticut. I do not, however, see the extremely dramatic disconnect with New England culture that you are proposing, particularly when we take the entire state into consideration.

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

(in fact, I have never been north of Rhode Island in 30 years).

So, you're a true expert on New England culture!

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Your comment “the extent of this cultural sphere of NY does not reach across the entire state (CT); it is largely confined to the southwestern corner”…shows the narrow attitude that isolated Northern New England people are famous for: I live in rural EASTERN CT and most of my family has lived in rural northern CT and could care less about what goes on in VT, NH, ME.

Since when did culture have anything to do with "caring" about what goes on in particular places? It's pretty common for people in more densely populated areas to not give much thought to the "less exciting" rural areas nearby. Do people in Chicagoland think much about what's going on in the adjacent farm country? Probably not. Does that mean that both areas are not culturally part of the Midwest?

And my experiences in Windham County tell me that this area is economically and culturally much more linked to Boston and the rest of New England than to NYC, but I invite you to convince me otherwise.

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Your map of what city people in New England identify with is misleading. It really only shows that most people north of CT identify with Boston…the only really big city north of NYC (lol). I’m not sure what that is supposed to tell us? Most people I know in CT know NYC the best, then Boston…and could care less about the cities north of Boston.

NYC is a much, much larger city than Boston, with a much more significant global influence. Yet people in western Massachusetts and southern Vermont, who are geographically closer to NYC, still identify with Boston. Doesn't that tell you something?

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Next, I can perceive the anger in you that the people of English ancestry are "ghosts of the past" in southern New England.

There is no anger over your argument, just frustration over a very poorly supported sweeping generalization. Any animosity you may sense in my tone is merely a reaction to the rather condescending note you began your post with.

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

The Irish and Italian cultural imprint on CT and RI, and to a lesser degree MA is NOT “just in the cities and their immediate suburbs” as you claim.

That is absolutely not what I claimed. I was merely pointing out that the Irish and Italians are the dominant ancestry groups only in the cities and immediate suburbs, countering the generalizations you were making based on the county-wide data in the Census map. Obviously the Irish and Italian "cultural imprint" extends well beyond those towns in which they make up the statistical majority, including *gasp* - in northern New England.

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

The Irish and Italian communities “blow the doors off” those of English ancestry in terms of political influence, business owned, and cultural influence in southern New England…especially CT. The large Hispanic, African American, Jewish, Middle Eastern, Asian, as well as the large numbers of Irish, Italian, polish, Russian, and Portuguese in Connecticut and in parts of MA/RI…could “care less” about English/Yankee traditions, cultural history, …etc. Sorry if that rattles the stiff shirts up north.

No "stiff shirts" here. But again, what does "caring" have to do with cultural reality? There is a regional character that is deeply rooted in history, whether people are aware of it or not. Sheer numbers of immigrants do little to change that, particularly when they are as diverse as you are very kindly demonstrating. Likewise, I'm not sure that "political influence" of particular ethnic groups is especially relevant -- the Irish no longer constitute a single voting bloc as they did in the 19th Century -- and I'm sure a lot of "Yankees" in Vermont have similar politics to Italians in Connecticut.

Of course, we should also remember that the vast majority of New Englanders do not trace their ancestry back to a sole ethnic group. Even in northern New England, most of us are "mutts" who do not identify as strongly with a foreign culture as previous generations did.

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

Finally…I am not “obsessed” with the climate of southern New England…I just stated a scientific fact. Unfortunately …some folks are greatly rattled when their false view of the world is shattered.

I'll give you some advice -- if you don't want to entice "anger" in other posters, then don't make arrogant statements like this one.

My point is that the comments about the climate of Connecticut were completely tangential to the topic at hand. Everyone knows that CT has a milder climate than Minnesota -- no shock there. But it is irrelevant to the definition of cultural regions.

Finally, rather than assuming that I have some "isolated northern New Englander" agenda with an interest in maintaining the cultural cohesion of a historical region, have you ever stopped and evaluated your own potential biases? Maybe you'd rather associate with the Tri-State area than anywhere else in New England? I'm not even remotely suggesting that is true, because I don't know you at all, but I'm just saying that it's quite important not to jump to conclusions like that.

[steve1282]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Not entirely true. I'm a native New Englander and I've found that most of the people in rural New England tend to be registered Democrats that are middle of the road on social issues and fiscally conservative. You will find a small percentage of the population in rural areas to hold liberal ideas but these usually are in or near college towns in the smaller cities like Hanover, NH, Middlebury, VT, Keene, NH, Brattleboro, VT, Northampton, MA etc. Once you get into the counties that are not really associated with a college and you'll find a lot of traditional Yankees that are not supportive of a Liberal agenda.

I second that. I live just outside of Boston most people are independents except if u live in the republic of cambridge where HAARVARD is I cant stand the libs there they give us such a bad name when most of the state completely disagrees with them

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by MassVt

I'm breathlessly awaiting your earth-shattering report, complete with graphs and pie charts, demonstrating that Minnesota is colder than Miami. I know that you won't disappoint, because you'll feel obligated to tell all of us...until you're blue in the face.........something we already know.

It's time for you to migrate south, along with the other "weather wimps", because "birds of a feather flock together", and you are one odd duck.

Take your graphs, and your extremely weird agenda, and fly south for the winter.

You’re absolutely right!

That way with me out of the picture…people like you can provide all the false, non-scentific information they want to hoodwink people seeking honest “factual” information…and know one will challenge them.

I also, think you have it quite backwards…why don’t you move up to northern VT (your handle) …then you can be alone, in a bland, cold, sterile existence, where your free to tell yourself whatever disillusioned fables about science and society you want…and known one will be around to challenge you (lol). I guess telling the truth is now considered an “agenda” (lol).

Sorry I “dare” provide factual information against hype, myth, and misinformation.

[GROVE51]

we don't say our r's right like down here in roanoke,va. Lol!!!!!!

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by kidyankee764

As someone who was born and raised in CT, I'll second this. Most CT folks call NYC "the city" even if they live in the center of the state 70-80 minutes away. The vibe that pulsates from NYC is so strong that the Manhattan culture is alive and well right up to the RI border.

Many, many CT residents I know never take day trips to Boston, or go there for any significant reason. I lived in CT for approximately 25 years and have been to Boston maybe five times. Why, you ask? Because anything you can get in Boston, you can get ten fold in NYC. And NYC is much closer, with mass transit (Metro North Rail) to take us right into Grand Central. Most small towns in southern and western CT have their own little stations.

Of course there are a number of CT residents who dislike NY sports teams and will do their best to associate themselves with Boston. They are truly in the minority, however. I've come into contact with many Bostonians and northern New Englanders who tease that CT is not really New England, even though it certainly is.

CT is very much the rat-race that is the NYC metro. New England in look, but New York City suburban in feel.

I agree.

I have been stationed in Groton Ct many times, and I own an apartment building in Norwich Ct.

While Groton is close to RI, and many folks will live in RI for the lower tax-base; the primary focus for city-life is NYC.

I have had renters who made trips to NYC each week for ethnic grocery shopping.

Personally I made one trip to Boston, and that was to help to move a friend's daughter who was attending college there.

But otherwise nobody in Eastern Ct goes to Boston for anything; they go to NYC.

We were foster-parents in Ct, and had to attend various courses, workshops and interviews. While the Ct case-workers all live and work in Ct; a lot of the foster-parents themselves that we were rubbing elbows with work in NY.

Ct is really a suburb of NYC even out to the East-side of Hartford.

The daily traffic pattern on I-95 and rt-84 is commuter traffic.

On I-95 the morning traffic is bumper-to-bumper heading in toward NYC even out as far as the New London bridge, and again in the early evening as folks are heading away from NYC. [New London is much closer to RI than NY, but it is still a suburb of NYC when you consider the to/from work traffic].

Rt-84 carries NYC commuter traffic at least out as far as Stafford Springs, and maybe further.

Rt-84 splits to Rt-2 which again is filled with NYC commuter traffic morning and evening all the way to Norwich Ct.

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by Verseau

I hate to break it to you, but I've only lived in New Hampshire for the past 10 years of my life. I was born and raised in suburban southeastern Massachusetts near the border with Rhode Island, where my mother's family is from (Central Falls).

Gee, considering your truculent knowledge of New England…I thought you were the expert (lol).

Originally Posted by Verseau

“However, I find your claim that the original English settlers did absolutely nothing to define the culture of modern-day southern New England to be pretty remarkable. How do you explain the observations about sociological behavior common to all areas of New England that are continually made by other Americans? I suppose the early New Englanders' values of self-reliance, industry, quality education, and social tolerance have completely vanished from southern New England? And that's to say nothing of interpersonal interactions and ways of using language”.

Another false hood. The values of education, and social tolerance have little to do with Northern New England. Statistically, long time residents are neither educated nor social tolerant. The real reason why northern New England is slowly changing is increased number of expiates from the urban Northeast corridor (DC to Boston, and especially the Tri-State area) are slowly changed the Yankee mindset of isolated Northern New England. Unlike you, I have done several studies on the demographics of northern New England…and words like education and social tolerance are quite a stretch. This area has only changed because the influences from points south. By the way… self-reliance is a common rural trait: Go to Montana or Wyoming and you’ll see. Northern New England has no market on self-reliance (lol).

Originally Posted by Verseau

Your assertions have pretty important implications as well. Are we to suggest that when diverse immigrant groups arrive in a given area, they do not adopt any characteristics of the local culture? Are primarily Irish or Italian communities in the South more similar to Irish and Italian communities in New England than they are to other Southern communities.

I’m not really sure what your point is? The Irish/Italian communities in places like CT/RI and parts of MA…are similar to Irish or Italian –American communities anywhere in the USA. If by “local culture”, you mean they become a hybrid of Yankee/English – Irish/Italian traditions…nothing could be further from the truth! The Irish strongholds in MA and Italian dominated southern CT have taken “little or nothing” from the Yankee cultural ways. Also, you seem to be under the false impression that the Irish and Italian-Americans are newcomers to places like CT/RI and parts of MA: The Irish arrived almost 120 years ago (1880’s) and many of the Italians (around 1900)…they “are” the local culture. A stone wall on someone’s property in CT or RI doesn’t give they Yankee culture (lol). The Irish dominate politics in CT/RI/and parts of metro MA…the Yankee/English “local cultural influence” is about zero.

Originally Posted by Verseau

Of course I do. Did I ever deny that fact? But my point stands. How exactly does the diversity of an area automatically make it more similar to other diverse areas than to less diverse areas to which it has much, much stronger historical links.

Your point is folly…what historical links? The culture of CT and large parts of MA/RI share little or no social/historical links with Yankee/english/New England ways. A stone wall in front of a house in CT dosn't mean people in CT have a cultural link with New England Yankees. One of the oldest African-American settlements on the US mainland is in New Haven, CT Newhallville area. There has been a African community here for almost 200 years, with strong ties to the Gullas in the low country of South Carolina and Georgia. Are people in Connecticut cutural tied to the cutural of the Lowcountry of South Carolina? Your point is absurd. Historical links based on who's perspective?

Originally Posted by Verseau

I don't think vacation spots have much to do with cultural identity, but I do recognize the growing influence of NYC culture in Connecticut. I do not, however, see the extremely dramatic disconnect with New England culture that you are proposing, particularly when we take the entire state into consideration.

By the way..there is no such thing as NYC culture (lol). What there is “Metropolitan culture”. Despite the myths out there today…many urban/suburban regions of the USA have congealed into massive metro’s… where the local historical culture has been obliterated by time and expansion.

In 1961, French geographer published a monumental study after 20 years of research from Washington DC to Boston, MA. Gottmann’s book and research showed that the region from Washington DC to Boston, MA had become one urbanized/suburbanized corridor. This is where the term “Megalopolis” was first used. The “dominant theme” in Megalopolis was the interconnections between the Northeastern Atlantic States (now known as the I-95 states). He augured that the cultural identity of the DC to Boston corridor had been obliterated by this urban/suburban growth. This was in 1961. Google it.

Originally Posted by Verseau

My point is that the comments about the climate of Connecticut were completely tangential to the topic at hand. Everyone knows that CT has a milder climate than Minnesota -- no shock there. But it is irrelevant to the definition of cultural regions.

Not real sure what Minnesota has to do with anything? You asserted that the New England states share a very similar climate…scientifically this is untrue. Connecticut and Rhode Island have a climate closer to NJ than to the Northern New England region. I’m not real sure what that has to do with Minnesota (lol).

Originally Posted by Verseau

“Finally, rather than assuming that I have some "isolated northern New Englander" agenda with an interest in maintaining the cultural cohesion of a historical region, have you ever stopped and evaluated your own potential biases? Maybe you'd rather associate with the Tri-State area than anywhere else in New England? I'm not even remotely suggesting that is true, because I don't know you at all, but I'm just saying that it's quite important not to jump to conclusions like that.

Well, I think what might have made me think that was when I read lines like this that you wrote...“In my original post, I did not address the problematic case of Connecticut”...

How is Connecticut a problem? Is it possible that the diversity of Connecticut is really the way it’s supposed to be. In fact, we think of it in the reverse… the problematic case of economic, socially, and culturally, isolated Northern New England. Perhaps there was more to this statement than meets the eye?

PS. Attempting to try to get others to line up with you in a debate only shows the weakness in your position. Just keep that in mind (lol).