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So, if it could be proven that a person is born homosexual, what would be gained by that? I am looking for the purpose of such a debate.
Because there are those of us who would, honestly, change our opinion and views based on that scientific evidence. I am not a bigot, or sexist, or homophobic, or any other word that people who can't argue like to use.
I believe that people of a different nationality, color, sex, etc., should not be ostracized because of those "naturally occuring" issues. I think the LGBT community tries to push their equality based on choice. And, due to the unpopularity of their personal choice, look for forcing their behaviors and unaccepted way of life on others (forcing religious marriages, forcing military incohesion, etc.).
If or when they can prove that it is a proven fact that they are born that way (to the extent a black person can prove they were born black, or a woman can prove that she was born a woman), then I am willling to stand side-by-side with them to ensure they enjoy the same rights as others.
But until then, they are no different then those that dress/act like vampires, or those that sport mohawks, or any other societal differences and can't understand why they aren't accepted.
Because there are those of us who would, honestly, change our opinion and views based on that scientific evidence. I am not a bigot, or sexist, or homophobic, or any other word that people who can't argue like to use.
I believe that people of a different nationality, color, sex, etc., should not be ostracized because of those "naturally occuring" issues. I think the LGBT community tries to push their equality based on choice. And, due to the unpopularity of their personal choice, look for forcing their behaviors and unaccepted way of life on others (forcing religious marriages, forcing military incohesion, etc.).
If or when they can prove that it is a proven fact that they are born that way (to the extent a black person can prove they were born black, or a woman can prove that she was born a woman), then I am willling to stand side-by-side with them to ensure they enjoy the same rights as others.
But until then, they are no different then those that dress/act like vampires, or those that sport mohawks, or any other societal differences and can't understand why they aren't accepted.
That is incredibly well said and exactly right. I repped your previous post in the thread yesterday....wish I could rep you again.
People who ask why anyone would choose homosexuality are posing the same inquiry as to the reason for any number of other....shall we say....controversial....behaviors. Why would anyone choose to put put steel rings in their eyebrows or studs through their tongue? Or cover their body with tattoos? Damned if I know - or much care, but some people do.
Fact is people do a lot of strange things in life that come with a guaranteed high level of disapproval from others. But they do them anyway.
What makes the homosexual agenda so dangerous and disturbing is its quest to eradicate the right of others to judge behaviors and to think what they think.
So, why was it said? What did saying "who cares" offer in any intelligent way into the conversation? Nothing. It just tried to create a red herring so that once again people would be cowed into not saying anything against what they believe on the risk of being called "homophobic" or "sexist" or whatever term would apply. Other than passive aggressive name-calling by sublimation, the statement is totally useless. So, again, there's no value in saying it. That's my point and I stand by it.
There have been several documented time periods and civilizations in history where homosexuality was not only approved of, but considered almost sacred. In Greek history, it was not uncommon for men to offer their young sons to other men as a gift.
But, this is American society. We're supposed to be more enlightened. I take no position over whether there's a morality to what is "right" or "wrong" with homosexuality. I simply have stated that there's no proof that it's anything other than brought through societal means, rather than biological. If people can't even acknowledge that simple truism, then there's little chance they won't wear tin foil hats to keep the aliens away as well.
I don't fail to recognize either fact you mention above. It appears that you have let your emotion override your reading comprehension. When you ask "who said that" regarding being wrong to raise your child as masculine or feminine, I think you'll find quite a few homosexual-biased groups have an issue that one may choose to punish their child for wanting to play with a Barbie doll instead of Hot Wheels cars. If you disagree with that premise, there's little hope you'll see the bigger picture of which I've been speaking.
If you are suggesting people, including yourself , are not proposing that being gay is immoral and sometimes use the natural fallacy as an argument, then only the most incredulous of all would take you seriously. Of course that's what anti-equality activists claim. You said yourself they do not deserve respect, lack of ostracism and equality. btw, that is bigoted. The natural fallacy does not save you. Calling someone who is repulsively homophobic a homophobe and a bigot is not a red herring, it is being honest. I'm not sure where you are from but not everybody has such an inanity or lack of attention span of your peers to not notice your connected posts within a few pages. The reason people say "Who cares?" is because bigots like you want to treat others like second-class citizens and throw them to the curbs and dredges of society and then defend your hateful bigotry by saying "Sexual orientation is not genetic like skin color, so it is all cool." Maybe that's why people say it. Maybe that is why it is relevant and takes away your armored attempt to deny civil rights to other people. You also failed to address how other known choices like religion and nationality are fine to be protected from inequality.
Now, for the question, is homosexuality natural, terminology comes to the forefront. Sexual orientation itself is a social construct to help better understand sexual behavior in human beings. It dates back to the Victorian Era. In that regards, homosexuality is on the exact same footing as heterosexuality, a social construction. Now same-sex sex acts are demonstrable, known and proven to be natural and found throughout the eons of biological history. Again, our closest relatives nearly all engage in sex with members of the same sex and that activity was so common throughout Antiquity and pre-Antiquity, yet it was repressed with the spread of Abrahamic religions. I suppose the homosexual agenda tells the great chimpanzee and bonobos to conspire with the dolphins, lions, ancient and modern humans and the DNA that connects all life to make this mirage? Please! Then again, your misuse of the word proof and adamant claim that it is brought through societal means yet you never wish to even remotely show anything demonstrable in favor of this.
The fact you think American proles are more enlightened than Athens or even the more LGBT tolerant and better educated societies such as the Netherlands or Sweden shows your biased jingoism and anti-intellectualism. Don't bring a hate speech to an educated person.
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 07-22-2011 at 04:20 PM..
Reason: Please discuss the topic, not each other.
That is incredibly well said and exactly right. I repped your previous post in the thread yesterday....wish I could rep you again.
People who ask why anyone would choose homosexuality are posing the same inquiry as to the reason for any number of other....shall we say....controversial....behaviors. Why would anyone choose to put put steel rings in their eyebrows or studs through their tongue? Or cover their body with tattoos? Damned if I know - or much care, but some people do.
Fact is people do a lot of strange things in life that come with a guaranteed high level of disapproval from others. But they do them anyway.
What makes the homosexual agenda so dangerous and disturbing is its quest to eradicate the right of others to judge behaviors and to think what they think.
Nobody is eradicating your rights. Racists still have the right to speak their racist viewpoints now decades after the CRA1964, and homophobes are protected under the First Amendment as well.
Anecdotal I know but I find myself asking myself if I could choose a sexuality. I am straight but I do not think I could choose to be gay.
But I realise that it goes even deeper than that. I am Irish and during my college years in the early 2000s we had a huge influx of foreign nationals into our country. Most notably the chinese and the polish, though there was others.
I have never been attracted to Chinese women. Ever. However I discovered during this period that they appeared to be quite attracted to me for some reason. I had a number of them almost literally throw themselves at me in clubs and pubs. A number not enourmous, but big enough that you could not count them on your toes and fingers.
I would have loved to have taken them up on their.... offers. But I could not, because I was not attracted to them and I could not choose to be so. Despite a literal boon of sexual conquests being laid at my feet I could not choose.... as much as I wanted to... to be into it.
So it seems comical to me, not JUST because of the lack of evidence that being gay is a choice.... that anyone could think it is given guys can not even choose to be attracted to certain types of women, let alone women as a whole sex.
I doubt we can choose to like men or women any more readily than we can choose to enjoy the taste of food that disgusts us. One can choose to eat Brussel Sprouts even if one does not like them.... but what one can not do is choose to start enjoying the taste. You either do.... or you dont.
And this is all even before you ask whether straight people "choose" to be straight. The idea that this all is something we go around deciding one day is as comical as it is baseless.
Because there are those of us who would, honestly, change our opinion and views based on that scientific evidence. I am not a bigot, or sexist, or homophobic, or any other word that people who can't argue like to use.
I believe that people of a different nationality, color, sex, etc., should not be ostracized because of those "naturally occuring" issues. I think the LGBT community tries to push their equality based on choice. And, due to the unpopularity of their personal choice, look for forcing their behaviors and unaccepted way of life on others (forcing religious marriages, forcing military incohesion, etc.).
If or when they can prove that it is a proven fact that they are born that way (to the extent a black person can prove they were born black, or a woman can prove that she was born a woman), then I am willling to stand side-by-side with them to ensure they enjoy the same rights as others.
But until then, they are no different then those that dress/act like vampires, or those that sport mohawks, or any other societal differences and can't understand why they aren't accepted.
For one, I find it rather humerous that your reasons WHY people would choose to be gay are all negative. Because they were abused, for attention, etc...what about the possibility that they met someone, came to care deeply for them, and decided to 'overcome' their heterosexuality in order to be with that person? Or simply made the choice that they weren't going to let gender matter, thus leaving themselves open for more chances to find love?
And again, if we accept it is a choice, we must accept that heterosexuality is a choice. And choices can be changed, so I'm assuming you feel you could switch at any time. Do you honestly feel this way, or think that the majority of heterosexuals do?
The hubris involved in telling other people that they made this conscious choice when they are repeatedly saying they didn't is pretty extraordinary. And if you want to claim it wasn't a conscious choice, then it wasn't really a choice at all by any common use of the word.
Also, how does one then explain homosexuality in animals? It goes far beyond apes and whales- almost all animal species have been observed to have non reproductive sex, including homosexual sex. So are these animals making a conscious choice as well?
I do not try to credit or discredit the normalcy, or even the morality of homosexuality. I question the genesis of the behavior. And, since you have supplied no other rational, logical arguments that could provide an insight as to anything other than choice, how can anyone determine off of "your word". If that is the case, maybe you would enlighten the entire world and civilization as a whole. Otherwise, it's your word, and without empirical data, carries no more weight than a coffee shop discussion.
in case you don't realize it, this forum is the equivalent of a coffee shop discussion. we are not performing experiments here or presenting papers in a lecture hall; it is a forum for opinions. though you deny it, yes you are questioning the validity of a person who identifies himself as gay, and yes, it is your attempt to label that person an imposter, as someone who only seeks attention or who wants to be different. it is an attempt to invalidate, to belittle even though you couch your remarks in arrogant pseudo-scientific posturing. what is quite clear in all of your comments is your own insecurity, your own fear regarding homosexuals, and finally your own ignorance which is at the base of all your statements.
i don't have to prove anything to you anymore than any gay person has to prove the origin of his sexual identity to you. we know who you are . we have, unfortunately ,seen , heard and met you many times.
To those of you who think homosexuality is a choice, why do you think you somehow know better than millions of health professionals and hundreds of millions of gay people?
If being gay was a choice:
Why does the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counselling Association and every other major health organization in the world state that homosexuality is not a choice?
Why is that there is no credible evidence that gay people can change their sexual orientation to become straight?
See the APA's 2009 Taskforce report on Sexual Orientation Change Efforts (SOCE) Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation
The American Psychological Association adopted a resolution condemning conversion therapy in 2009, saying that “mental health professionals should avoid telling clients that they can change their sexual orientation through therapy or other treatments.”
Why do all the major health organizations in the world warn against so-called "reparative" or "pray away the gay" therapy by ex-gay groups because it is ineffective, unethical and can be harmful?
Why do gays and lesbians have physiological differences to straight people, including brain structure?
Nobody is eradicating your rights. Racists still have the right to speak their racist viewpoints now decades after the CRA1964, and homophobes are protected under the First Amendment as well.
I don't approve of the behavior of adulterers... does that make me afraid of them?
I don't approve of murderers... does that make me afraid of them.
I don't approve of people who put gum under desks... does that make me afraid of them.
I can point to science that shows blacks are born that way. I can point to science that proves women are born that way. Since no credible science backs up your contention that gays are born that way (other than the childish "uh huh!!"), then there's no furthering the conversation.
If your line of logic is true, you MUST give civil liberties and freedom from persecution to pedophiles, those who prefer beastiality, and any other social deviance (murder, rape, etc.). When do we draw the line between allowable actions? Between two consenting adults? Then adultery should be legal. There has to be a line, and I think scientific proof is a good one.
Should, one day, science prove that being gay is not a choice at all, I will be the first one to stand arm-in-arm with pro-gay activists for free rights. Until then, stamp your feet all you want... I'm used to kids doing that. I would also expect you to exhonorate everyone else's behaviors because they may have been born that way (excusing them for any behaviors they choose).
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 07-25-2011 at 04:07 PM..
Reason: Deleted comments not in line with Great Debates guidelines.
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