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Personally I think they're alienating more people than their winning over.
And yes, I may dress like Conan and chase my girlfriend around the apartment as I tear her loin cloth off - but I don't do that in public.
We share the public space and as such make certain compromises to accommodate others.
Gays want to go to extremes like a little kid throwing a tantrum and then look around and say, "why doesn't anybody like me?"
I have gay friends and many of them agree with me.
Not all, but those who don't say they have hope for me
i don't like or feel comfortable with public displays of what could be termed extreme heterosexual or homosexual behavior. however, i feel that some of the more extreme behavior on the part of gays may be a reaction to having had to conceal their sexual identity for so long, and to conform to mainstream heterosexual society's idea of what is acceptable. as with any group that has had to behave in such a way that is contrary to their basic nature, now that they are becoming more accepted, behavior on the part of some gays will tend toward the excessive. over time, as they are more accepted and feel they have less to prove, my guess is they will feel less need to wear their sexuality as a badge.
catsy girl
And a politically popular position.
Because educated people have bias too, still doesn't make it fact.
Present it as opinion - OK.
Present it as fact and your not being entirely honest.
Quite honestly I believe there may be a genetic proclivity towards same-sex relationships but do not believe there is a binary genetic gene.
I believe many people want to claim genetic disposition to justify any behavior and deny any responsibility for their behavior. Not all, but many (my opinion )
And those educated people base their opinions on over 60 years of evidence-based research. The consensus among educated health professionals worldwide, is that sexual orientation is not a choice. This does not mean sexual behaviour is not a choice. Of course it is.
You are right that there is no "binary genetic gene" - human sexual orientation is not binary and it is far too complex for just one gene. Researchers have known this for some time. It's the media that made a big issue of "a gay gene" and the "anti-gay religious right" love to use it as a strawman argument to tear down.
More and more studies have been showing not just a "genetic proclivity", but other biological causes for sexual orientation. Levels and timing of hormones which affect the development of the embryo in-uterus may be one of the main factors. Biological differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals have also been shown in studies. This is not something that a person "chooses".
Why would gay people need to "justify and deny any responsibility for their behavior" anyway? What "behavior" do you mean? Falling in love with someone? Wanting to be in a relationship with someone they love?
I get the feeling that you think gay people are just heterosexuals who choose to have sex with someone of the same gender? Is that correct?
I dont understand why its so imperative that we all accept and view the opinion of the self proclaimed professional left as the gospel? If some people want to think sexuality is innate, that is fine. But I think others should be equally free to think for themselves. No one should be the thought police regarding other people's belief systems. This includes those who believe they are educated, or professional or anything else. There's no reason that these people should view them selves as anything more than people with a piece of paper. They may be professionals, who are entitled to their opinions. But they are not authoritarians any more than any of us on this website are. Because just as those educated professionals believe sexuality is innate, there are uneducated, unprofessional people who believe sexuality is inborn, and there are educated people who believe sexuality is a choice. At the end of the day, their opinion is nothing more than their opinion, just like everyone else's.
Who are these supposedly "educated people" who believe sexual orientation is a choice?
A person can have the opinion that the earth is only 6000 years old and they would be free to express that opinion. They might even find others that agree with them. But I doubt you will find any educated person, especially scientists, agreeing with them. And the evidence-free opinions of people who believe the earth is only 6000 years old, would certainly not be as valid as the evidence based opinions of educated scientists.
Why is your bedroom suddenly a public political agenda?
Why do you parade down the street in outlandish costumes baring more skin than clothes and call it pride.
Why do you get offended when you dress and act in a manner that would likely alarm if not offend most people and when they don't want to do business with you or even just say something you scream their discriminating because your gay.
When will you guys get it? Who gives a flying rats patootie what you do in the privacy of your own homes? When you try to usurp the schools or public venues to promote what many, yes do consider perversion - then yea, they protest.
I do none of those things. I am a Family Counsellor working mainly with straight parents as clients. I dress rather conservatively. None of my clients would have a clue that my partner is a woman and that we have 3 teenage daughters. My collegues where I work know that I am gay because we all talk about our families and kids. I certainly don't talk about the "bedroom" just as my straight colleagues wouldn't.
Most of my gay and lesbian friends are professionals working as doctors, nurses, psychologists, counsellors, uni lecturers and professors, social welfare etc. Some have children like my partner and I do.
None of us go around like you are describing. Seriously you have some rather cliched stereotyped ideas of gays and lesbians. You probably know quite a few gay people - but you just assume they are straight - because they don't fit your ideas of what gay people look like and act like.
So what "behavior" do you think I need to "justify"?
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,878,581 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
And those educated people base their opinions on over 60 years of evidence-based research. The consensus among educated health professionals worldwide, is that sexual orientation is not a choice. This does not mean sexual behaviour is not a choice. Of course it is.
You are right that there is no "binary genetic gene" - human sexual orientation is not binary and it is far too complex for just one gene. Researchers have known this for some time. It's the media that made a big issue of "a gay gene" and the "anti-gay religious right" love to use it as a strawman argument to tear down.
More and more studies have been showing not just a "genetic proclivity", but other biological causes for sexual orientation. Levels and timing of hormones which affect the development of the embryo in-uterus may be one of the main factors. Biological differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals have also been shown in studies. This is not something that a person "chooses".
Why would gay people need to "justify and deny any responsibility for their behavior" anyway? What "behavior" do you mean? Falling in love with someone? Wanting to be in a relationship with someone they love?
I get the feeling that you think gay people are just heterosexuals who choose to have sex with someone of the same gender? Is that correct?
And their personal bias of course doesn't slip into their objectives. I was told in college to decide on any conclusion you want because there is enough data to support any conclusion. I've seen the textbooks written by people with political agenda's and been in the classrooms run by people pushing those agendas over facts or logic.
I also have seen the verbal runaround by "intellectuals" who make up their own language then tell you, you are unqualified to discuss or debate an issue because you lack the proper training. I've seen the papers written with conclusions drawn by inadequate data sets or targetted demographics without disclosure.
I'll trust the hard sciences and empiracal data over the soft sciences which rail for credibility but fail to deliver by their own arrogance and shoddy work.
And yes, I have repeatedly stated I believe for the most part homosexuality is a choice.
To be fair, I do believe there may be a genetic proclivity, not binary switch for same-sex relationships but that said I believe the vast majority of those who label themselves gay do not fall in to this category.
And their personal bias of course doesn't slip into their objectives. I was told in college to decide on any conclusion you want because there is enough data to support any conclusion. I've seen the textbooks written by people with political agenda's and been in the classrooms run by people pushing those agendas over facts or logic.
I also have seen the verbal runaround by "intellectuals" who make up their own language then tell you, you are unqualified to discuss or debate an issue because you lack the proper training. I've seen the papers written with conclusions drawn by inadequate data sets or targetted demographics without disclosure.
I'll trust the hard sciences and empiracal data over the soft sciences which rail for credibility but fail to deliver by their own arrogance and shoddy work.
And yes, I have repeatedly stated I believe for the most part homosexuality is a choice.
To be fair, I do believe there may be a genetic proclivity, not binary switch for same-sex relationships but that said I believe the vast majority of those who label themselves gay do not fall in to this category.
as has been stated here by others, heterosexuals are not asked to prove that they were born heterosexual. it's a given. i've always been heterosexual and i've never questioned it or had it questioned by others. why should gays have to prove anything? why do they have to justify their existence and their choices to the heterosexual world? the only answer i see is that people such as yourself sit in moral judgement of them and this judgement is generated by feelings of fear and being threatened by their lifestyle. you are afraid they will in some way contaminate what you hold dear- your values, your home, your children. to maintain there is any other reason for your feelings is simply denial.
catsy girl
For those who tend to believe that gay is a choice, try to apply your arguments as to why to the animal kingdom. Just as in humans, there are animals who are gay all their lives and those who are bisexual, but it does not seem to be a problem for them. Live and let live. We all should share the same rights and acceptance in society.
Children, if left to their own devices, tend not to discriminate over race, sex, gender preference. What is it in our civilization that corrupts us into prejudice as we mature? When I was a young girl I had a gay male friend. My parents taught me little about straight sex, and certainly nothing about gays. I was appalled at some of my classmates and their shunning of this fellow and when I confronted them they could not give a decent reason why they acted as they did towards him.
To me, it is obvious that 'gayness' is usually much deeper than mere choice in much of the animal kingdom. God made us all and it is not our place to criticize part of His creation because it ruins our personal concept of what a society should be.
Remember, there have been civilizations in the past that accepted gays and even encouraged such activity.
I truly don't understand why people do not accept gays as they would anyone else and can only speculate that it may be some personal problem that they have not resolved that causes such harsh judgement.
And their personal bias of course doesn't slip into their objectives.
Naturally there will be more homosexual researchers working in that field, because it's an important one to them, having faced it all their lives, and they want to help the world understand more--especially when "the world" displays so much ignorance. You'll also find more cancer doctors who had a fmaily member with cancer, more orthopedists who had bone problems as children or know someone who did, and more veterinarians with pets. People go into a field that has personal interest to them. How is this a surprise?
Quote:
And yes, I have repeatedly stated I believe for the most part homosexuality is a choice.
Based on what empirical evidence? How many case studies of people who said "Yeah, I woke up one morning and decided 'Hey, I think I'll dig guys for awhile and find women unattractive." Could YOU choose to be attracted to your own gender? You should, as a scientific experiment. See how easy it is to control whom you are sexually attracted to. Report back to us when you're finished.
Not to mention that there is no motivation for someone to "choose" homosexuality when so many disadvantages come along with it. You have a MUCH smaller dating pool, face discrimination in the workplace, housing, legally, and may get ejected from your own family or friends. WHY would anyone--let alone 5% of the population--"choose" this when people in generally choose a path that makes their life easier. Gay adolescents in particular have it the hardest, being bullied, ostraacized, and often beaten up daily. Why would they CHOOSE this if they could just wake up and be like everyone wants them to be. Do you not think they try? Every gay adult you sit down and talk to will tell you they spent most of their adolescent years trying, PRAYING, doing anything they could to rid themselves of homosexuals feelings and feel attraction for the opposite sex, to no avail. Who are YOU to say you know these people's minds, whom you've never met, better than they know their own? You really have some nerve!
And I'm still waiting on the hard scientific evidence that proves YOUR notion that it is something a person can just "switch on and off"? Yes, there have been a very small handful of people who calim they "switched", and thre have also been many who claimed they switched, only to come back 5 years alter and say "I was fooling myself--nothing changed, I was just repressing my desires."
Where is YOUR evidence that you kow people's own minds and life experiences better than they do themselves? And please address the motive of WHY anyone who deliberatly choose to be a member of a minority demographic that faces derision, mockery, ostracism, and often physical violence if they had a choice about it?
And as for genetics, something can be inborn and NOT genetic--ever heard of hormones? One of the strongest theories on homosexualisty is that is comes from the "wrong" mix of testosterone/estrogen during pregnancy. That most certanily is not a CHOICE to the baby.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,878,581 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
Naturally there will be more homosexual researchers working in that field, because it's an important one to them, having faced it all their lives, and they want to help the world understand more--especially when "the world" displays so much ignorance. You'll also find more cancer doctors who had a fmaily member with cancer, more orthopedists who had bone problems as children or know someone who did, and more veterinarians with pets. People go into a field that has personal interest to them. How is this a surprise?
Based on what empirical evidence? How many case studies of people who said "Yeah, I woke up one morning and decided 'Hey, I think I'll dig guys for awhile and find women unattractive." Could YOU choose to be attracted to your own gender? You should, as a scientific experiment. See how easy it is to control whom you are sexually attracted to. Report back to us when you're finished.
Not to mention that there is no motivation for someone to "choose" homosexuality when so many disadvantages come along with it. You have a MUCH smaller dating pool, face discrimination in the workplace, housing, legally, and may get ejected from your own family or friends. WHY would anyone--let alone 5% of the population--"choose" this when people in generally choose a path that makes their life easier. Gay adolescents in particular have it the hardest, being bullied, ostraacized, and often beaten up daily. Why would they CHOOSE this if they could just wake up and be like everyone wants them to be. Do you not think they try? Every gay adult you sit down and talk to will tell you they spent most of their adolescent years trying, PRAYING, doing anything they could to rid themselves of homosexuals feelings and feel attraction for the opposite sex, to no avail. Who are YOU to say you know these people's minds, whom you've never met, better than they know their own? You really have some nerve!
And I'm still waiting on the hard scientific evidence that proves YOUR notion that it is something a person can just "switch on and off"? Yes, there have been a very small handful of people who calim they "switched", and thre have also been many who claimed they switched, only to come back 5 years alter and say "I was fooling myself--nothing changed, I was just repressing my desires."
Where is YOUR evidence that you kow people's own minds and life experiences better than they do themselves? And please address the motive of WHY anyone who deliberatly choose to be a member of a minority demographic that faces derision, mockery, ostracism, and often physical violence if they had a choice about it?
And as for genetics, something can be inborn and NOT genetic--ever heard of hormones? One of the strongest theories on homosexualisty is that is comes from the "wrong" mix of testosterone/estrogen during pregnancy. That most certanily is not a CHOICE to the baby.
Don't accuse me of something without knowing what you are talking about. I don't post my opinions as facts, my objection is to others trying to lend credence to their opinions by either stating they're facts or leveraging educated opinions by social scientists.
There lies the crux of my criticism. I believe these educated opinions lack credibility hence, I will rely on empirical data for accepting the validity of suggegsted axioms such as "being gay is gentically based".
As for justifying anything Jaymax, I'm not saying anybody has to justify anything to me. If I observe someone acting in a self-absobed or narcissistc manner, yes, I have internal reactions which you may very well call judging - don't we all? From what you've said about yourself I'm not sure why you would equate yourself to those who engage in childish and pathetic displays of public exhibitionism they somehow twist into meaning pride.
Well, I can't give any dramatic conclusive evidence. But I can give my story, true and simple.
Basically, I'm gay. I never chose to be gay. Ever. Looking back I can see signs of it from when I was 7. Slowly but surely, I started to realize what it was, around 11 maybe 12. Around that same time, people, my friends, started turning on me. I don't know why even now, no one even had a clue I was gay, they just turned on me. People would call me a 6 letter epithet for gay which starts with f, among other things. And at the same time, I fought it, and I fought it and fought and fought and fought because of what society had taught me growing up. And as I fought, I kept getting hurt, and the cuts in my soul went deeper and deeper as I fought harder and harder. "Pathetic." I would say to myself. "Who could ever love you? They'll hate you, you know. God will hate you if you can't beat this. You'll be a freak." Eventually, I came to this forum, completely by random. And I started meeting members who were gay. And they were nice people, great people even. And my opinion on gay people changed. But I still couldn't accept myself. 3 years after middle school, my torment and night mare, began, I entered high school. People there were different, they accepted me with all of my quirks, and slowly but surely, my heart and soul began to heal. Eventually, on February 23rd 2010, I came out to my best friend at the age of 15. It was a fluke really, I planned on doing it but I did. And he accepted me as I am, to which I am extremely grateful. A month or so later, after telling a lot of my core group of friends, I was talking to him about how I really wished I was straight, about how I never wanted this. I talked about how I was praying so hard for a sign that I would be ok. He gave me, in turn, a bible verse, simple, but powerful. Jeremiah 29:11, which reads
" For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
and he said "Gods got you wrapped in his arms man, and he isn't going to let you go."
Now I had never seen that verse before, or at the time as I could remember, but it gave me hope.
A month or so later I'm sitting at my computer and I look up and see the cross my grandparents gave me as a confirmation present, and on it was written Jeremiah 29:11.
A few months later in the summer I went to a Church camp up in Colorado, and I'm still having doubts. The first day I was sitting with a few people talking, and one of the guys, the guitar player for the band that was playing at this camp, was talking about Prophetic words that God sometimes plants in our minds about people we see. So, I asked him what he saw for me. He said he had nothing then but he would get back to me later if something came up. A few days later he came up to me and said that one thing was just being repeated in his mind over and over: Jeremiah 29:11. He then recited the verse to me and ask if that meant anything to me. I simply smiled and said yes.
And now here I am. 16. Gay. and Christian. I never chose to be gay, but I chose to accept it. And me being gay never sent me away from God, it simply sent me running into his arms. In turn, God was the one who helped me accept myself. So, for those of you who think you know gay people just because they're gay, and for those of you who think you know Christians just because they're Christian, and for those of you who think it is impossible for the two to co-exist, you are wrong. And I know you're wrong because I am living proof of it. And no one can ever take that away from me.
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I do none of those things. I am a Family Counsellor working mainly with straight parents as clients. I dress rather conservatively. None of my clients would have a clue that my partner is a woman and that we have 3 teenage daughters. My collegues where I work know that I am gay because we all talk about our families and kids. I certainly don't talk about the "bedroom" just as my straight colleagues wouldn't.