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I love some of the thought out intelligent replies, for instance "Who cares?" or "I think it's by birth, but who cares?" I'm glad we weren't shallow enough as a society to say that about the Earth being flat, or the sun revolving around the Earth, or anything else that required scientific proof to either confirm or deny!!
Do people still discuss whether 2+2=4? Are there studies that prove or disprove that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west? Of course not. Those are scientific facts. If and when there's scientific proof that there is a gene, or chemical imbalance or whatever, then (and only then) will I believe it's a genetic issue. Until then, it's a choice, plain and simple.
I believe there are a great deal of contributing factors to people's choice to be gay, and not any one fits the whole. I think emotional, physical, and/or psychological trauma (or any combination) is one factor. I think another is a desire for attention (positive from some circles, negative from others), but any attention - be it positive or negative - is better than none, and they are starved for some form of attention. Another is the desire to stand out - a sort of demand for notice of individualism.
The farthest I can go without scientific evidence is that we are born neutral and through society raised with certain beliefs - and those beliefs (along with reward for good behavior and discipline for bad behavior) pave the direction we take during our formative years of development. This would explain why there are more and more people "claiming" to be gay (because society has been force fed a philosophy of over-tolerance). So, it's now "wrong" to try to raise your child as a masculine boy or feminine girl.
So - until science prevails, we need to rise above the immature and sophomoric mindset that "who cares". Because when we as a society are being challenged to change the societal norms for an extreme fringe of society (to include laws that have far-reaching economical ramifications), you are darn right that we better make sure it's for a fact, and not a personal choice that could change tomorrow!!
Wow. When someone says, "Who cares?", they're saying something being genetic or not does not have a bearing on whether or not it is right/wrong/permitted/forbidden. Not to mention things that are choices and/or not natural such as religious and political views and nationality are protected and affirmed by society. Certainly the biology behind sexuality is quite interesting and should be explored, no one said otherwise(except for anti-biology creationists). For instance, some of our closest relatives like the bonobo are all bisexual(or at least engage in sex with both sexes). Given human history, especially prior to the rise of Abrahamic religions, it is not difficult to believe that like other primates we are inclined to same-sex attraction and different-sex attraction. You also fail to recognize what sexual orientation is as opposed to gender expression, and you also make the false claim " So, it's now "wrong" to try to raise your child as a masculine boy or feminine girl." Who said that? Or does the growing tolerance in society for people who are not aligned with gender roles and a heterosexual orientation make you wish to lie about society and strawman advocates for equality? Are you ok with societies' changes of norms in the past or only when you agree with it?
You're so skeptical about the genetic angle but gullible as can be with the choice pov.
I love some of the thought out intelligent replies, for instance "Who cares?" or "I think it's by birth, but who cares?" I'm glad we weren't shallow enough as a society to say that about the Earth being flat, or the sun revolving around the Earth, or anything else that required scientific proof to either confirm or deny!!
Do people still discuss whether 2+2=4? Are there studies that prove or disprove that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west? Of course not. Those are scientific facts. If and when there's scientific proof that there is a gene, or chemical imbalance or whatever, then (and only then) will I believe it's a genetic issue. Until then, it's a choice, plain and simple.
I believe there are a great deal of contributing factors to people's choice to be gay, and not any one fits the whole. I think emotional, physical, and/or psychological trauma (or any combination) is one factor. I think another is a desire for attention (positive from some circles, negative from others), but any attention - be it positive or negative - is better than none, and they are starved for some form of attention. Another is the desire to stand out - a sort of demand for notice of individualism.
The farthest I can go without scientific evidence is that we are born neutral and through society raised with certain beliefs - and those beliefs (along with reward for good behavior and discipline for bad behavior) pave the direction we take during our formative years of development. This would explain why there are more and more people "claiming" to be gay (because society has been force fed a philosophy of over-tolerance). So, it's now "wrong" to try to raise your child as a masculine boy or feminine girl.
So - until science prevails, we need to rise above the immature and sophomoric mindset that "who cares". Because when we as a society are being challenged to change the societal norms for an extreme fringe of society (to include laws that have far-reaching economical ramifications), you are darn right that we better make sure it's for a fact, and not a personal choice that could change tomorrow!!
i cannot believe that any reasonably intelligent, sane person could believe that a person chooses to be homosexual. until very recently many of those who were openly gay were reviled, called names, shunned by family, made the brunt of whispering and sick jokes, and the list goes on. to think that a person would endure this kind of behavior to gain attention, to be thought of as a unique individual is inconceivable. and it is worse than that; it is ignorant.
scientists have known for some time, through a myriad of testing of homosexual men and women that there is a genetic link to being gay, although certainly, in some cases, enviornment and rearing play a part. certainly it has been known for a while that homosexuality often runs in families with more than one sibling in a family being gay, or a cousin, aunt or uncle. in my own family i have a brother-in-law and sister-in-law ( siblings ) who are gay and were well aware of it by age 12 or 13. i have a good friend who is straight but who has three of his four siblings who are gay.
and contrary to changing the "societal norms" we are being asked to be an inclusive society and embrace differences whether they be differences of color, sex, national origin or sexual orientation. anyone straight or gay deserves the right to live his life openly, happily, with the partner of choice, under the full protection of the law and with the full rights granted to any other citizen. this presents no threat to me and should not be a threat to anyone else.
Do people still discuss whether 2+2=4? Are there studies that prove or disprove that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west? Of course not. Those are scientific facts. If and when there's scientific proof that there is a gene, or chemical imbalance or whatever, then (and only then) will I believe it's a genetic issue. Until then, it's a choice, plain and simple.
Many things that we know to be true aren't proven. For instance, gravity is not a scientific fact/law; it is still a theory, because scientists still can't prove indefinitely that gravity exists.
Also, there's no proof whatsoever that it is a choice, so it makes no sense to just choose to believe that idea over believing it's not a choice. In fact, there is some good evidence that its not a choice. If it's not proven either way, why don't you just admit that you don't know for sure, instead of picking the side that justifies your bias and discrimination?
Or just listen to the scientific community which has come to the consensus that it's not a choice.
This is something that is very misleading, especially from the media which is what you just linked to. Media articles are not "research".
If there is a genetic cause of homosexuality it almost certainly will not take the form of a "gay gene" as such. That is a media mistake and one that has misled an enormous number of people.
The fact is that everyone on the planet contains the genes for the other sex. All men contain the genes for having breasts, producing eggs and being attracted to men. All women contain all the genes for what makes men men too.
The difference is which genes are "expressed" or turned on in lay speak. If homosexuality has a genetic element it will not be some magical gay gene, but it will be something that causes the expression of some female genes in men, or males genes in women.
So no.... you will most likely never look and find some magic new gene that causes homosexuality. There is likely no "gay gene". What you will find is that the genes in homosexual men.... genes all men and woman have.... are being expressed where they normally would not be.
Wow. When someone says, "Who cares?", they're saying something being genetic or not does not have a bearing on whether or not it is right/wrong/permitted/forbidden. Not to mention things that are choices and/or not natural such as religious and political views and nationality are protected and affirmed by society.
So, why was it said? What did saying "who cares" offer in any intelligent way into the conversation? Nothing. It just tried to create a red herring so that once again people would be cowed into not saying anything against what they believe on the risk of being called "homophobic" or "sexist" or whatever term would apply. Other than passive aggressive name-calling by sublimation, the statement is totally useless. So, again, there's no value in saying it. That's my point and I stand by it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poletop1
Certainly the biology behind sexuality is quite interesting and should be explored, no one said otherwise(except for anti-biology creationists). For instance, some of our closest relatives like the bonobo are all bisexual(or at least engage in sex with both sexes). Given human history, especially prior to the rise of Abrahamic religions, it is not difficult to believe that like other primates we are inclined to same-sex attraction and different-sex attraction.
There have been several documented time periods and civilizations in history where homosexuality was not only approved of, but considered almost sacred. In Greek history, it was not uncommon for men to offer their young sons to other men as a gift.
But, this is American society. We're supposed to be more enlightened. I take no position over whether there's a morality to what is "right" or "wrong" with homosexuality. I simply have stated that there's no proof that it's anything other than brought through societal means, rather than biological. If people can't even acknowledge that simple truism, then there's little chance they won't wear tin foil hats to keep the aliens away as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poletop1
You also fail to recognize what sexual orientation is as opposed to gender expression, and you also make the false claim " So, it's now "wrong" to try to raise your child as a masculine boy or feminine girl." Who said that? Or does the growing tolerance in society for people who are not aligned with gender roles and a heterosexual orientation make you wish to lie about society and strawman advocates for equality? Are you ok with societies' changes of norms in the past or only when you agree with it?
I don't fail to recognize either fact you mention above. It appears that you have let your emotion override your reading comprehension. When you ask "who said that" regarding being wrong to raise your child as masculine or feminine, I think you'll find quite a few homosexual-biased groups have an issue that one may choose to punish their child for wanting to play with a Barbie doll instead of Hot Wheels cars. If you disagree with that premise, there's little hope you'll see the bigger picture of which I've been speaking.
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 07-22-2011 at 04:20 PM..
Reason: Please discuss the topic, not each other.
Many things that we know to be true aren't proven. For instance, gravity is not a scientific fact/law; it is still a theory, because scientists still can't prove indefinitely that gravity exists.
Also, there's no proof whatsoever that it is a choice, so it makes no sense to just choose to believe that idea over believing it's not a choice. In fact, there is some good evidence that its not a choice. If it's not proven either way, why don't you just admit that you don't know for sure, instead of picking the side that justifies your bias and discrimination?
Or just listen to the scientific community which has come to the consensus that it's not a choice.
Is this really going to be your argument? Really?!?! Gravity to homosexuality being a genetic trait!?!? C'mon. I'm not 5... that may work on those that don't understand what scientific theory is, but I can explain that theory to you if you want, also.
Suffice it to say, that the theory of gravity has been proven. If you doubt it, feel free to walk off the top of a tall building. Until you're willing to do that, don't even try to compare to to something that has had zero success in the scientific community, let along the free-thinking world as a whole.
You would have had more credibility comparing it to quantum mechanics than gravity. C'mon. This is too easy!
i cannot believe that any reasonably intelligent, sane person could believe that a person chooses to be homosexual. until very recently many of those who were openly gay were reviled, called names, shunned by family, made the brunt of whispering and sick jokes, and the list goes on. to think that a person would endure this kind of behavior to gain attention, to be thought of as a unique individual is inconceivable. and it is worse than that; it is ignorant.
scientists have known for some time, through a myriad of testing of homosexual men and women that there is a genetic link to being gay, although certainly, in some cases, enviornment and rearing play a part. certainly it has been known for a while that homosexuality often runs in families with more than one sibling in a family being gay, or a cousin, aunt or uncle. in my own family i have a brother-in-law and sister-in-law ( siblings ) who are gay and were well aware of it by age 12 or 13. i have a good friend who is straight but who has three of his four siblings who are gay.
and contrary to changing the "societal norms" we are being asked to be an inclusive society and embrace differences whether they be differences of color, sex, national origin or sexual orientation. anyone straight or gay deserves the right to live his life openly, happily, with the partner of choice, under the full protection of the law and with the full rights granted to any other citizen. this presents no threat to me and should not be a threat to anyone else.
*sigh* - I'll safely say you've never taken psychology in anything past, what, the 3rd grade level?
Yes. It's a choice. Get mad. Call names. But without proof, you have nothing. So, just saying so makes it no more valid than someone saying they can drink five beers and drive without impairment. It just doesn't hold water.
Color is a trait that one is PROVEN to be born with (maybe with the exception of Michael Jackson ). Sex is something that one is PROVEN to be born with. National origin is something that one can PROVE. Sexual orientation is a choice. I don't know how to make it much clearer than that.
*sigh* - I'll safely say you've never taken psychology in anything past, what, the 3rd grade level?
Yes. It's a choice. Get mad. Call names. But without proof, you have nothing. So, just saying so makes it no more valid than someone saying they can drink five beers and drive without impairment. It just doesn't hold water.
Color is a trait that one is PROVEN to be born with (maybe with the exception of Michael Jackson ). Sex is something that one is PROVEN to be born with. National origin is something that one can PROVE. Sexual orientation is a choice. I don't know how to make it much clearer than that.
if it's any of your business, i have graduate degrees in psychology and sociology. i've taught college workshops in gender differences and lifestlye choice. however it doesn't or shouldn't take educational credentials to realize that being gay, living as an openly gay person in a world still populated with many ignorant,biased people who are threatened by anyone who has a different lifestyle than their own, is a a hard, hard road no one would actually choose. and there are many cases of gay men and women, desperate to become straight,so-called "normal", who have become involved with extremely conservative religious groups claiming to be able to "pray away the gay", and they have been unsuccessful in changing their basic sexual identity. that is because it is their sexual identity with which they were born. just because it is not proven by birth certificate or some other credential you would find acceptable, if indeed there are any, does not make it any less real or less valid.
So, I have seen thread going on forever and I wonder, what is the point? It cannot be proven one way or another. Does being born a certain way, having it in your "genes" make whatever behavior you exhibit make it correct? Normal? Socially acceptable? Moral in the eyes of God? So, if it could be proven that a person is born homosexual, what would be gained by that? I am looking for the purpose of such a debate. I still view it as a mental health issue based on all available information and my personal experience of some years in observation, well, honestly, I see it as a weakness of soul to give into sinful behavior, born that way or not. I believe we all have temptations and choose to act on them or not. Don't they say that we are all born "selfish"? What if everyone indulged in that behavior because they were "born that way"?
if it's any of your business, i have graduate degrees in psychology and sociology. i've taught college workshops in gender differences and lifestlye choice. however it doesn't or shouldn't take educational credentials to realize that being gay, living as an openly gay person in a world still populated with many ignorant,biased people who are threatened by anyone who has a different lifestyle than their own, is a a hard, hard road no one would actually choose. and there are many cases of gay men and women, desperate to become straight,so-called "normal", who have become involved with extremely conservative religious groups claiming to be able to "pray away the gay", and they have been unsuccessful in changing their basic sexual identity. that is because it is their sexual identity with which they were born. just because it is not proven by birth certificate or some other credential you would find acceptable, if indeed there are any, does not make it any less real or less valid.
I do not try to credit or discredit the normalcy, or even the morality of homosexuality. I question the genesis of the behavior. And, since you have supplied no other rational, logical arguments that could provide an insight as to anything other than choice, how can anyone determine off of "your word". If that is the case, maybe you would enlighten the entire world and civilization as a whole. Otherwise, it's your word, and without empirical data, carries no more weight than a coffee shop discussion.
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 07-22-2011 at 01:50 PM..
Reason: Please discuss the topic, not each other.
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). Sex is something that one is PROVEN to be born with. National origin is something that one can PROVE. Sexual orientation is a choice. I don't know how to make it much clearer than that.