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A degree in math, physics, language or English (grammar, rhetoric, etc) is not easy for most people. (these are considered liberal arts majors)
Contrary to popular belief, a liberal arts degree is not a degree in underwater basket weaving. The idea is to develop a student’s logic, rational thought, and overall intellectual horsepower. I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, but in comparing a liberal arts major who graduated in a challenging major and did well, and a specific vocational degree student who graduated and did well... the liberal arts major is going to have a 'rounder' education and 'know more' in general (again: IN GENERAL). He/she will have adaptable tools to spread over a broader range of employment situations.
Some years back I did a research paper on technical writers in the computer and/or technical sector. In the vast majority of the cases, companies wanted English majors to fill the role, not computer degree people. Generally, the 'computer geek' with a computer degree who may have the technical knowledge can't usually convey anything in writing to the general public in a pleasant, understandable way (look at some of the computer tech manuals written solely by geeks to see what I mean). He/she knows how to code and handle a computer/network and that's about it. This is not always the case, but quite often. So then, that liberal arts English major who spent four or five years learning grammar, lanugage, presentation, rhetoric, discourse analysis, communication, creative writing, grant proposal writing, APA writing, MLA writing, etc, is going to chew the computer major up and spit him out in anything besides coding a computer or entering some UNIX commands on a server. (again, in general).
You are about the first to call physics or math liberal arts degrees. Where I come from they are considered hard science or hard math respectively.
Generally liberal arts means a BA, not BS.
Although, there *is* such a degree as a BA in Physics, and it takes a little more course work than the BS, although it's so rare it's almost unknown.
Frequently "Liberal Arts Major" means "general studies" , essentially a generic major.
Getting to the OP's question, GPA, the actual major, and from where would matter. A guy with 4.0 or near that on an English major from Harvard, or any other Ivy League school, has indeed done something impressive. Now in the technical world where I work, they would be regarded as well-educated but not too well trained, but you might get a hiring manager to take a chance on them because they have shown intellectual prowress and a damn good work ethic - the idea being that they are obviously trainable and the training can be on the job...
But the undifferentiated major does beg the question of what the guy wants to do when they grow up.
*Any* 4-year degree does lift your resume up out of the "high school only" crowd, if only a little.
As for the BA, I nearly got a BA in math rather than a BS. I would only have needed one more foreign language course (it required two full years of a single foreign language). In this case the BA would have required 20 credit hours more than my BS did.
A number of my extended family have recently graduated with Liberal Arts Degrees from College and are now hitting the job market unsuccessfully. Most of them have absolutely no work experience even in a part time job. Or do they have any part time experience as an unpaid Intern. They devoted themselves to their studies.
Now they are angry that they can not find a job. Are they any better off than a person right out of High School? Lets assume they are equal in communication skills and interviewing skills.
Where would they gain experience if they just graduated? Its like saying that newly recruits joining the military aren't skilled warriors.
On a different note, the propaganda machine bashes the unemployed as being uneducated. Lack of education is considered among the top reasons for not landing a job, isn't it?
Truth is that many jobs can be performed without a college diploma, but employers are using it as another way to screen applicants.
I think one of their main problems is employers look at candidates who have never worked, even a summer or part time job while in school, as weak and lacking work skills. I often wondered why both of my relatives did not try to get an internship or summer job sometime between ages 16-23. Now the two of them are both 23 years old with a degree in Political Science and Psychology and unemployed.
Last edited by Weekend Traveler; 06-27-2009 at 05:43 AM..
Actually, AT&T did a long-term tracking survey on this very subject a few years back. They found out that liberal arts majors typically struggle very early in their careers, but actually tend to outstrip other majors in average earnings by the time they hit their late 30s or 40s--including engineers and programmers.
What they found is that liberal arts majors excelled in synthesizing large amounts of abstract information and drawing accurate conclusions, whereas those in more career-driven degree fields tended to not do so well in areas that extended beyond their major. For as one moves beyond entry level work in business to management, one needs to think in a multidisciplinary manner, needs to gain new knowledge quickly, and have the basic intuition to supervise and coordinate people. Anybody who has spent much time with engineers and computer programmers knows that these are not typically part of their skillset.
That being said, I would be hesitant to hire any 22-year-old who had never held down a job of any description. And I don't understand any parent who would allow their 16-, 17-, or 18-year-old to not have a job. You essentially cripple your children when you make their lives easy.
Depends on what you want and how much effort you put into it.
In my case my Political Science degree alone would probably be not worth a whole lot. However, since I am going to law school and really couldn't just go to law school with a high school diploma my political science degree is quite useful especially since I did a good job in college. I have job experience, but that, aside for working for an MP in Britain, it is pretty much all s*** jobs, definitely not what I want to be doing for the rest of my life.
On the other hand if one had poor grades and just coasted through college going for just a degree. Then liberal arts degrees are pretty useless and are probably not worth the expense.
So it depends. If you have the work ethic, advanced planning, and a little luck to make your degree work for you it is useful. If not it is a nice, expensive piece of paper.
A number of my extended family have recently graduated with Liberal Arts Degrees from College and are now hitting the job market unsuccessfully. Most of them have absolutely no work experience even in a part time job. Or do they have any part time experience as an unpaid Intern. They devoted themselves to their studies.
Now they are angry that they can not find a job. Are they any better off than a person right out of High School? Lets assume they are equal in communication skills and interviewing skills.
A lot of people that graduated can't find jobs. But this has not happened in the last year. This has been going on for some time.
Liberal arts has nothing to do with it. A Poli Sci major is pre-law. You don't have to go to on to law school. The key is knowing the general direction that you want to go. Has your extended family member tried applying for the FBI or the CIA or any aspect of law enforcement including corrections and border patrol? Probably not. How about applying to a police department? How about applying to a court? 23 is a good thing. All he needs to do is to get his foot in the door.
So, he goes out and gets a job as a CO somewhere. He gets some experience under his belt. He questions during the interview what other positions would he be able to use that experience in. Sometimes positions may be first opened up to those who are already working in-house. So, if he does work as border patrol for a period of time would he not be bringing something to the table for any other department that deals with immigration? What other opportunities come up that he may be privy to apply for that the public would not see first?
Psychology needs more time in school. I have met one person that has a Bachelors in Psychology and I don't think it faired well.
What they found is that liberal arts majors excelled in synthesizing large amounts of abstract information and drawing accurate conclusions, whereas those in more career-driven degree fields tended to not do so well in areas that extended beyond their major. For as one moves beyond entry level work in business to management, one needs to think in a multidisciplinary manner, needs to gain new knowledge quickly, and have the basic intuition to supervise and coordinate people. Anybody who has spent much time with engineers and computer programmers knows that these are not typically part of their skillset.
Exactly. Everything I've read on the matter indicates essentially the same thing. If a liberal arts program is REALLY doing what it is supposed to in the traditional sense of the term, this will be the case. Now, if it’s a crappy college and a crappy program... the results are going to be crappy. That would apply to any program.
I think the philosophical difference is that your average trade program/technical program is going to turn out a very ‘narrow’ individual who is an expert in whatever field. The liberal arts program (again, assuming the program is really what it claims to be) is going to turn out an individual with a broader set of skills which may not be as extensive in a specific field, but which will allow the individual to adapt to the specific field. What it's supposed to provide is the ability to think and reason in general. That is not the case with, say, a computer networking program. That teaches you to run cable and deal with a linux terminal. Tell me who (in general) has a better chance of being successful at, say a HR job, or mid-level management, or general business, or public relations, etc, when there are no networking jobs? On the other hand, although the networking grad will have an advantage with a networking job, a GOOD liberal arts major could catch on to operating a computer network and running cable pretty quickly.
Contrary to our recent trend, I believe that the worth of a well-rounded individual (like Da Vinci) is far higher to society than is the ‘vulgar mechanick’ to which Isaac Newton referred.
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