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you pretty much did say such a thing. you said you only have tidy friends and went into quite a long disertation about a neighbor who didn't keep a clean house and what a mess she was. you were sure to mention that you didn't consider her a friend.
Right - and I didn't consider her a friend. I was appalled by her lifestyle and actions - not because her house was messy, but because, for starters, as I mentioned, she continually showed up at my front door, with a very dirty baby in tow (which is so sad and irresponsible on her part) at SEVEN AM in the morning - in dirty clothes herself, with oily hair that hadn't even seen a comb. Her life was dysfunctional on many levels, as I also pointed out - and I ALSO pointed out that I was kind to her, and tried to help her, even spending three days with her helping her clean her apartment (which she asked me to do)...but nothing worked. I couldn't help her. And whether I wanted to help her at all (which I did), it was still rude of her to show up every morning right after her husband left for work. At 7 am. When I had told her repeatedly that since my baby slept till 8, I preferred to do the same.
My point, which someone a page back recognized through their own experiences, is that often a slovenly house is a strong indication of emotional issues, or at the very least, a person's priorities, aka "values." I was about 21 at the time - very young and naive. I tried being kind to this woman, but I didn't know how to fix her emotional issues. I also had no idea how to establish healthier boundaries in my own life.
As for my "tidy friends" now - yes, you're right - I did say that all my close friends are tidy people. We didn't CHOOSE to be friends BECAUSE we're all tidy. It just worked out that way. I simply noticed one day that without exception, my friends all keep very neat and clean and aesthetically pleasing homes - in fact, not one of them has a simply "utilitarian" home - they're nearly all filled with art and decorated with style, even if it's not "my style."
Once again, it seems to have something to do with personalities and values - those are two elements that come into play in friendships.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 03-13-2014 at 08:52 AM..
Right - and I didn't consider her a friend. I was appalled by her lifestyle and actions - not because her house was messy, but because, for starters, as I mentioned, she continually showed up at my front door, with a very dirty baby in tow (which is so sad and irresponsible on her part) at SEVEN AM in the morning - in dirty clothes herself, with oily hair that hadn't even seen a comb. Her life was dysfunctional on many levels, as I also pointed out - and I ALSO pointed out that I was kind to her, and tried to help her, even spending three days with her helping her clean her apartment (which she asked me to do)...but nothing worked. I couldn't help her. And whether I wanted to help her at all (which I did), it was still rude of her to show up every morning right after her husband left for work. At 7 am. When I had told her repeatedly that since my baby slept till 8, I preferred to do the same.
My point, which someone a page back recognized through their own experiences, is that often a slovenly house is a strong indication of emotional issues, or at the very least, a person's priorities, aka "values." I was about 21 at the time - very young and naive. I tried being kind to this woman, but I didn't know how to fix her emotional issues. I also had no idea how to establish healthier boundaries in my own life.
As for my "tidy friends" now - yes, you're right - I did say that all my close friends are tidy people. We didn't CHOOSE to be friends BECAUSE we're all tidy. It just worked out that way. I simply noticed one day that without exception, my friends all keep very neat and clean and aesthetically pleasing homes - in fact, not one of them has a simply "utilitarian" home - they're nearly all filled with art and decorated with style, even if it's not "my style."
Once again, it seems to have something to do with personalities and values - those are two elements that come into play in friendships.
I'm sorry, but that's a load. I've met unrelenting clean freaks who are damaged to the hilt.
A person's priorities, aka "values" as you put it, may be stellar and worthwhile, however they just don't care to brag incessantly about how ascetically pleasing their and ALL THEIR FRIENDS houses are, which apparently according to you makes them a much superior human being to those who quite frankly don't give such a crap.
Making qualifiers such as "but that's just me" and "that's how it works in our home" don't justify the abject snobbery and condescension that your posts are putting across. Who cares! It's so friggin superficial in the grand scheme of things.
Let's regroup. A few posters on this thread have implied, or flat out stated, that they'd "RATHER" have a messier house and spend more time with their families "than" keep a neat house- as if the two activities somehow cancel each other out.
Several people even went on to discuss how it could even be emotionally damaging to have a clean house because to do so seemed to them to mean that they were ignoring the emotional needs of family members!
Personally, I think this is a false conundrum - and can even be considered insulting, as if those who prefer living in and raising their families in neat and clean houses are somehow inflicting emotional deprivation on their family members. The two elements - clean homes and happy, emotionally healthy families - can and do exist easily with each other in many households. Apparently that's hard for some people to believe, though why, I don't know.
I am sure that families can also be happy and emotionally healthy in cluttered, maybe even dirty homes - depending on personalities and expectations. What generally DOESN'T work as well though, is when people with different expectations for neatness and cleanliness share a home. It's frustrating and can cause lots of tension between people.
Here's an example, from my own life, of how that can play out.
My exhusband liked that I kept a neat house. He knew it was important to me, too. His job required lots of entertaining, especially entertaining those "above him on the food chain" (he is an officer in the military), and he enjoyed having people over and entertaining them in our home - he was proud of his family and his home. That being said, he is also a very controlling and emotionally abusive person, which is why we are divorced. He tried to control every aspect of my life - cutting me off from friendships, monitoring my activities down to the very minute (for instance, he would "allow" me a certain amount of time to go to the grocery store and if I took longer, there was hell to pay). One thing he would do when he was on one of his rampages, determined to emotionally mess with me, would be that he would make a mess somewhere, like on the dining room table, or in the middle of the living room floor, and he would tell me, "Don't touch any of that - I am going through that stuff." Then he would just LEAVE IT for days - maybe even WEEKS - at a time. He would actually come home and walk around this mess, looking closely at it, to see if I had touched any of it! (Freak!) Now - remember that he was a neat person himself - and that he wanted the house to be neat and clean. His ONLY reason for doing this was to mess with me. Of course if someone was coming over, it took him about five minutes to clean up whatever area he had decided to mess up and leave messed up.
Interesting side line: After our divorce, he married a woman who had zero housekeeping skills. She had actually attended a boarding school most of her life and had never been taught how to run a household. She CERTAINLY didn't know how to get anyone else in the family to help her keep things neat and clean. They quickly had four children together (he and I also had four children together). Over the years, when my kids would visit, they would come back with tales of filth and chaos - which they found disturbing. The few times I was in their home, I was literally shocked at the mess. To make matters worse, my ex husband began emotionally abusing his wife (no surprise there) by telling her how horrible she was at housekeeping, and comparing her to ME on a daily basis, telling her that "my ex wife did a MUCH BETTER JOB than you with the house and the kids - you could take some lessons from HER" - that sort of thing.
She and I became allies over the years for the sake of the kids, and I always had insisted that my kids show her respect and appreciation, because she was never once cruel or thoughtless toward them. She eventually divorced him, as I had before her, and she and I still enjoy and respect each other, which I think is good for all the kids involved. Her kids think of me as their aunt in fact!
Anyway, for those people who think that the cleanliness or lack thereof of a home can't be an indicator of priorities, values, personalities, issues, etc - I beg to differ, and clearly I have my reasons for my opinion.
I'm sorry, but that's a load. I've met unrelenting clean freaks who are damaged to the hilt.
A person's priorities, aka "values" as you put it, may be stellar and worthwhile, however they just don't care to brag incessantly about how ascetically pleasing their and ALL THEIR FRIENDS houses are, which apparently according to you makes them a much superior human being to those who quite frankly don't give such a crap.
Making qualifiers such as "but that's just me" and "that's how it works in our home" don't justify the abject snobbery and condescension that your posts are putting across. Who cares! It's so friggin superficial in the grand scheme of things.
I've met dirty, messy people who are damaged to the hilt as well. And I've met clean freaks who are too. I've also met people who keep very clean houses who are very friendly and emotionally healthy - and I've met people with dirty, cluttered houses who are apparently very happy and have happy families as well.
Like I've said, I sold real estate for many years, and I'm sorry, but I've seen some really messy, dysfunctional homes - and that wasn't just my take on it - my customers would often recoil in horror when we walked into a home, to find dirty shower stalls, sinks overflowing with stinking dishes, and dirty underwear on the floor. You can say "They're just keepin' it real," all you want, but sorry - I think it's odd to put your house on the market, knowing people are going to be walking through it and looking at it, and yet it's a stinking mess.
I also think it's odd to try to sell a house that is filled to the brim with Disney collectibles for that matter (I showed a house that literally held THOUSANDS of these things, and the closets were full of all the original boxes), or carpeted in pink carpet - and so did the vast majority of customers. No, I don't apologize for wondering what the hell is going through someone's head when I see weird stuff or dirty, stinking messes in people's homes - and I know that plenty of other people feel the same way. Oh, the stories I could tell!
I've also seen the smiles of delight on customers' faces when they walk into a clean, pleasant home. It's like a sigh of relief - in fact, after being in dirty, disheveled homes, it's often LITERALLY a sigh of relief. They invariably remark on it and are pleased by it.
This thread is ABOUT "neat freaks vs slobs." I don't go around in real life talking about how clean my house is, but we are IN A DISCUSSION about values and priorities and clean vs dirty homes, etc etc so of course I am going to talk about it, rather than talking about, say, the weather or who is going to go to the Superbowl next year.
I mentioned the friends houses because I thought it was interesting from a psychological perspective - does this tie in to personalities and values somehow? It's something to discuss - not a judgment. I didn't "seek out" friendships with people who keep clean houses - hell, I was friends with them long before I ever saw their houses for that matter. I think it's interesting though, that I can't think of a single person I'm good friends with who has a perpetually messy house. Food for thought.
Let's regroup. A few posters on this thread have implied, or flat out stated, that they'd "RATHER" have a messier house and spend more time with their families "than" keep a neat house- as if the two activities somehow cancel each other out.
Several people even went on to discuss how it could even be emotionally damaging to have a clean house because to do so seemed to them to mean that they were ignoring the emotional needs of family members!
Personally, I think this is a false conundrum - and can even be considered insulting, as if those who prefer living in and raising their families in neat and clean houses are somehow inflicting emotional deprivation on their family members. The two elements - clean homes and happy, emotionally healthy families - can and do exist easily with each other in many households. Apparently that's hard for some people to believe, though why, I don't know.
I am sure that families can also be happy and emotionally healthy in cluttered, maybe even dirty homes - depending on personalities and expectations. What generally DOESN'T work as well though, is when people with different expectations for neatness and cleanliness share a home. It's frustrating and can cause lots of tension between people.
Here's an example, from my own life, of how that can play out.
My exhusband liked that I kept a neat house. He knew it was important to me, too. His job required lots of entertaining, especially entertaining those "above him on the food chain" (he is an officer in the military), and he enjoyed having people over and entertaining them in our home - he was proud of his family and his home. That being said, he is also a very controlling and emotionally abusive person, which is why we are divorced. He tried to control every aspect of my life - cutting me off from friendships, monitoring my activities down to the very minute (for instance, he would "allow" me a certain amount of time to go to the grocery store and if I took longer, there was hell to pay). One thing he would do when he was on one of his rampages, determined to emotionally mess with me, would be that he would make a mess somewhere, like on the dining room table, or in the middle of the living room floor, and he would tell me, "Don't touch any of that - I am going through that stuff." Then he would just LEAVE IT for days - maybe even WEEKS - at a time. He would actually come home and walk around this mess, looking closely at it, to see if I had touched any of it! (Freak!) Now - remember that he was a neat person himself - and that he wanted the house to be neat and clean. His ONLY reason for doing this was to mess with me. Of course if someone was coming over, it took him about five minutes to clean up whatever area he had decided to mess up and leave messed up.
Interesting side line: After our divorce, he married a woman who had zero housekeeping skills. She had actually attended a boarding school most of her life and had never been taught how to run a household. She CERTAINLY didn't know how to get anyone else in the family to help her keep things neat and clean. They quickly had four children together (he and I also had four children together). Over the years, when my kids would visit, they would come back with tales of filth and chaos - which they found disturbing. The few times I was in their home, I was literally shocked at the mess. To make matters worse, my ex husband began emotionally abusing his wife (no surprise there) by telling her how horrible she was at housekeeping, and comparing her to ME on a daily basis, telling her that "my ex wife did a MUCH BETTER JOB than you with the house and the kids - you could take some lessons from HER" - that sort of thing.
She and I became allies over the years for the sake of the kids, and I always had insisted that my kids show her respect and appreciation, because she was never once cruel or thoughtless toward them. She eventually divorced him, as I had before her, and she and I still enjoy and respect each other, which I think is good for all the kids involved. Her kids think of me as their aunt in fact!
Anyway, for those people who think that the cleanliness or lack thereof of a home can't be an indicator of priorities, values, personalities, issues, etc - I beg to differ, and clearly I have my reasons for my opinion.
But here's the thing - that's their reality, and you keep implying that that somehow makes them lesser persons with less than desirable personality traits and values.
That's not necessarily the case, just as being neat as a priority doesn't necessarily exclude a person from enjoying their famlies.
It's you that keeps pushing that your way is the "better" way. It's not, it's just different.
Mind you I'm not counting unhygienic and clearly pathologically unhealthy living conditions that are a sign of mental illness. Just ordinary day to day mess. Some people don't care about that, and depending on the size of your house and the stage your family's at - keeping obsessively neat might have to go on the back burner a bit until people have a bit more time and leisure to take care of it.
But it doesn't and shouldn't define people in your eyes, just because it's not the way you'd do it.
But here's the thing - that's their reality, and you keep implying that that somehow makes them lesser persons with less than desirable personality traits and values.
That's not necessarily the case, just as being neat as a priority doesn't necessarily exclude a person from enjoying their famlies.
It's you that keeps pushing that your way is the "better" way. It's not, it's just different.
Mind you I'm not counting unhygienic and clearly pathologically unhealthy living conditions that are a sign of mental illness. Just ordinary day to day mess. Some people don't care about that, and depending on the size of your house and the stage your family's at - keeping obsessively neat might have to go on the back burner a bit until people have a bit more time and leisure to take care of it.
But it doesn't and shouldn't define people in your eyes, just because it's not the way you'd do it.
Of COURSE either extreme can be problematic. Of COURSE a person can be so obsessive compulsive that it negatively impacts their relationships. And of COURSE a person can be so filthy that it harms their families too.
I am not talking about little messes - I'm talking about DIRTINESS and chaos in a home. Yes, that's a problem. I haven't ONCE criticized anyone for allowing kids to leave their toys out in the living room, or not making up their beds, that sort of thing. However, I did point out that in my family, we DO make up our beds every morning - and it takes less than three minutes to do so. It doesn't "take away from our family time together" and that has clearly been the judgment call from several people on this thread.
It's interesting to me that you think I'm judgmental, but you can't see judgmentalism in the other stance. Several people on this thread have stated repeatedly that "they'd rather spend time with their families than spend it cleaning their house" as if it's just impossible to do both - keep a clean house AND spend quality time with families. THAT'S the attitude I have an issue with, because I think the implication is that when a person keeps a neat, clean house, they're doing so at the expense of family closeness.
As I've said over and over and over again - it's not "either" keep a clean house "or" have a happy, close family.
I am not talking about little messes - I'm talking about DIRTINESS and chaos in a home. Yes, that's a problem. I haven't ONCE criticized anyone for allowing kids to leave their toys out in the living room, or not making up their beds, that sort of thing. However, I did point out that in my family, we DO make up our beds every morning - and it takes less than three minutes to do so. It doesn't "take away from our family time together" and that has clearly been the judgment call from several people on this thread.
It's interesting to me that you think I'm judgmental, but you can't see judgmentalism in the other stance. Several people on this thread have stated repeatedly that "they'd rather spend time with their families than spend it cleaning their house" as if it's just impossible to do both - keep a clean house AND spend quality time with families. THAT'S the attitude I have an issue with, because I think the implication is that when a person keeps a neat, clean house, they're doing so at the expense of family closeness.
As I've said over and over and over again - it's not "either" keep a clean house "or" have a happy, close family.
But, because you refuse to let statements slide past without a response, the implication that keeps coming across in your posts, is "keep a clean house 'IN ORDER TO' have a happy, close family." as if it is totally wrong to even think that you could be happy in a less than "perfect" house.
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