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Originally Posted by All American NYC
Thats not true.
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What is not true?
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Originally Posted by All American NYC
What is your view on the border.
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This is not the topic of this thread. The topic of the thread is immigration and ethnic conspiracy theories.
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Originally Posted by All American NYC
You have target a group if one group is doing majority of the illegal activity don't you?
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Drawing associations between this illegal activity described and a specific ethnic group is the basis for the development of the ethnic conspiracy theory.
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Originally Posted by chicagonut
We all know that most anti-illegal Americans are not racists but unless the pro-illegals point out the few who are or may be they have nothing left to support their anti-laws and own ethnocentric agenda.
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The word "racist" has a disputed meaning, and is not one I have used in this thread. Rather, I have claimed that there are affinities between white supremacists and some opponents of immigration, since both groups adhere to an ethnic conspiracy theory that involves Mexican/Mexican-American annexation of the U.S. Southwest from Anglo whites.
I also claimed that there was an important difference between the two groups' conception of this idea, with white supremacists attaching a significance to Mexicans' Indian admixture that non-supremacist opponents of immigration do not and are usually not aware of.
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Originally Posted by chicagonut
In fact the ethnocentric kind are promoting their "brown" illegals from south of our border to violate our immigration laws so they can become the majority in this country so I think the "supremist" label is being put on the wrong crowd.
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This is a reiteration of the ethnic conspiracy theory, but has already been disproved, since the leadership of major Hispanic advocacy organizations are generally white, and the ethnic stratification in Hispanic countries favors whites.
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Originally Posted by chicagonut
Also, would any country's citizens welcome a demographic change to their country via illegal immigration? How is it supremist to want to retain one's national identity and demographic makeup?
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A desire to maintain the demographic dominance of whites and the belief that it is integral to "national identity" is exactly what is espoused on Stormfront and in white supremacist ideology. Are you claiming that this desire and belief are not indicative of white supremacism?
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
What exactly is the topic of this thread?
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The topic of the thread is immigration and ethnic conspiracy theories.
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
Illegal aliens are immigrants? They aren't. They're temporary squatters. Under that "logic" I could move into your backyard and state I live there. Hell I could call you selfish and greedy that you won't continue to pay the property taxes so I can continue to live there.
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This is an example of thread derailment and an apparent attempt at a red herring fallacy, and is also etymologically inaccurate, since the literal meaning of the term immigrant is rejected in favor of a preferred rhetorical meaning.
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
That people who oppose illegal aliens do so because they are racist?
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This is a strawman fallacy. It has been repeatedly clarified that some opponents of immigration who conceive of an influx of recent immigrants as an ethnic threat to the demography of the United States or the Southwestern region of the United States share affinities with white supremacists in this regard, though there are still differences in their beliefs in that white supremacists typically have developed views about the genetic inferiority of Mexican and Central American immigrants that the non-supremacist conspiracy theorists do not share.
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
Well some are racists. So are the members of La Raza. Shall I pull up the nonsense many of their leaders have written?
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This is a red herring fallacy, and apparently a
tu quoque fallacy also, since the views of the National Council of La Raza are ascribed to ideological opponents on this forum.
It is also not logically coherent, since Hispanics are a multi-racial population, the National Council of La Raza therefore a multi-racial organization, and its internal structure probably hierarchically dominated by whites, as argued by the aforementioned published article.
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
Threads like this one are exactly why it is impossible to have a conversation on this topic with some people. They can't defend importing low skilled non-English speakers here economically.
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This is another red herring fallacy.
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
So they resort to ad hominem attacks
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An ad hominem attack is an irrelevant attack on a personal characteristic of an arguer rather than an argument itself. An example would be claiming that non-Americans' arguments regarding immigration to the U.S. can be rejected because they are made by non-citizens. Can you cite a specific example of this logical fallacy being used in this thread?
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
and guilt by association tactics. It's the only "defense" they have.
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Originally Posted by UrbanQuest
Wow, trying to lump common sense people who oppose illegal immigration with Storm-Front members. Nice try. Here's another quote from Stormfront.
"I need some tips, hints, recipes etc on making sausages. Does anyone actually do this? Making your own using natural casings and your own mince is one of the best things you can do for yourself. And you know exactly whats going in, the fat content, etcetera."
I like sausage on my pizza sometimes. I must be a white supremacist. Wait, I'm not white.
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These respective comments explicitly and implicitly claim that the guilt by association fallacy has been used, and is therefore a logical weakness in the argument has been made. The guilt by association fallacy is a logical fallacy wherein a negative or disliked party is shown to hold a certain view, belief, or position, which is then used to invalidate that view when held by others.
Aside from the Hitler and vegetarianism example already mentioned, other examples would be the claim that Hitler was a Christian and a totalitarian, and therefore all Christians support totalitarianism, or the claim that Stalin was an atheist and a totalitarian, and therefore all atheists support totalitarianism.
However, the claim made here that the guilt by association fallacy has been used stems from a failure to understand the difference between beliefs that are tangentially related to the core of a person's worldview and beliefs that are fundamentally related to the core of a person's worldview.
In the case of the "culinary" views mentioned above (vegetarianism and sausages), there is a tangential relationship in that the same individuals who hold fascist views also hold views in favor of fascism. This would be distinct from a belief in ethnic cleansing or imperialistic annexation of territory that is considered part of the nation-state's homeland, which are
fundamentally related to fascism, as opposed to being tangentially related.
In the case of Stormfront and white supremacists more generally, their belief that the U.S. Southwest is being demographically conquered by a foreign ethnic group that is hostile to Anglo whites is
fundamentally related to their "racialist" worldviews, whereas their enjoyment of natural sausages is
tangentially related only by virtue of having the same proponents endorse the idea, and is unrelated in a meaningful sense.