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Quote from the article: "The foreign born from Mexico gained LPR status mostly through family reunification. About 89 percent obtained green cards through family relationships, 6 percent through employment, and 5 percent through other routes, including a small number of refugees or asylees".
How did we get so many people of Mexican ancestry living here in the first place with so many of their family members still living in Mexico that accounts for the 89% stat above? How and why do so many of their families voluntarily divide themselves in this manner that requires reunification on our soil?
If you read everything closely, it reports no Mexicans were admitted as refugees in the 2011 data. Mexicans also had a very low (1%, 294 individuals out of 24,988) asylum rate as well. So when there is statements on this forum saying that Mexicans are getting asylum in "very large numbers", it should quickly strike you as being suspicious.
How can I find suspicion in that, considering I don't recall anyone stating such? Perhaps you'd like to quote someone to refresh my memory.
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
So find where I disputed that statistic, just like you found the data that Mexicans have a higher percentage of "sham marriages" with U.S. citizens than other nationalities of immigrants:
Oh, wait, you didn't substantiate that claim. That belief would not be limited to just illegal aliens. Why do you feel (without showing data) that Mexican Nationals have a higher "prevalence" of sham marriages with U.S. citizens?
For some reason, I thought we were discussing THIS thread. But, if you want to revisit the thread in question, please note the following. For the record, I wasn't avoiding your questions in that thread. I have simply been too busy lately to post. Mind you, this is only a drop in the bucket. Marriage fraud is rampant, not only for Mexicans, but numerous other nationalities. So yes, it is only human nature to be suspicious of marriages between U.S. citizens and illegal aliens. Heck, I wouldn't marry a legal immigrant if he didn't already have a green card.
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One of the main reasons marriage fraud is so common among those deported, granted voluntary departure, or still in the United States but eligible for deportation is a matter of simple logistics. It is far easier to find an American spouse in America than from overseas. For illegal immigrants, finding an American spouse is not just an aspiration, it’s a mission, and it is the most common way of returning to the United States for those who have been deported.
Classic marriage fraud cases involve two people conspiring to bring an immigrant to the United States based on a phony marriage, but for every case where there are two conspirators there is at least one where the American believes the marriage is based on mutual affection and love while the foreigner only wants to obtain a green card.
One American woman who fell victim to a sham marriage — Elena Maria Lopez — founded the website Home Page in order to help other Americans in the same situation and many other American victims have webpages and blogs warning Americans about marriage fraud.
The vast majority of sham marriages go undetected, largely because USCIS lacks the manpower to conduct wide-scale field investigations. In fact, USCIS reportedly completes investigations on less than 1 percent of marriage-based green card applications.
Multiple indictments charging 21 individuals with conspiracy and/or immigration benefit fraud (marriage fraud) were unsealed Wednesday. The indictments resulted from an investigation conducted by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) Document and Benefit Fraud Task Force, the FBI and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS).
Rodriguez was charged during the 2008 iteration of "Operation Knot So Fast," an operation that targeted individuals who orchestrated fraudulent marriages in order to manipulate the United States' immigration system. He pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit immigration benefit fraud. On Sept. 30, 2008, he was sentenced to 33 months in federal prison.
A federal jury found Marlon Jimenez (43, Norcross, GA) guilty yesterday of marriage fraud. He faces a maximum penalty of 5 years in federal prison.
According to evidence presented at trial, Ender Rodriguez arranged the marriage of Jimenez, an alien unlawfully present in the United States, to Edna Isabel Cosme, a United States citizen. The marriage was arranged so that Jimenez could fraudulently obtain lawful permanent residence in the United States.
More than eighty individuals involved in various marriage fraud conspiracies throughout Florida were arrested this week following a joint investigation by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Middle District of Florida, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS).
ICE special agents made arrests in Orlando, Jacksonville, Tampa, Sarasota, Cocoa Beach and Ft. Myers. Those arrested included individuals who arranged the sham marriages; American citizens who accepted bribes, and foreign nationals who, in some cases paid up to $10,000, to obtain a benefit by committing fraud.
But Navas highlights several recent prosecutions and enforcement data to contend the federal government is making life difficult for marriage fraudsters. “From October 2009 through September 2011,” she says, cases investigated by ICE “generated 487 indictments, 418 criminal arrests, 349 administrative arrests, 417 convictions, and $1,671,572 dollars in seized assets from marriage-fraud investigations” nationwide. In one case in Los Angeles, she explains, a “massive marriage-fraud scheme” was dismantled by an operation called Newlywed Game, resulting in 59 convictions so far.
A well-known Mexican soap opera star and her American husband face federal charges of entering a sham marriage so she could get legal residency in the United States.
A Mexican actress accused of entering a sham marriage to remain in the United States has been sentenced to 30 days in jail for admitting she lied during an immigration proceeding.
I have been abused by a Mexican woman with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She deceived me to believe that she wanted to be my wife. I provided for her and her three sons for three years. After three years of living together I thought I knew her.
I agreed to marry her because I agreed that she should become legal in this country.
Just as soon as I married her she revealed her true face. She actually told me she never intended to be my wife and that she married me for immigration.
Back to the report of most Mexican immigrants being here illegally. It is true: The data shows 58% of Mexican immigrants (6.8 million of "nearly" 11.7 million) are in the U.S. illegally.
Yes, it IS true, which is exactly what we've been saying. However, you have on numerous occasions denied this simple fact.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
The Mexican government reported the results of recent studies on Tuesday showing that 68 percent of Mexicans who migrate or try to migrate to the United States do so without documents. . .
Nearly 7 in 10 Mexican Migrants Enters U.S. Illegally, Says Mexico | Fox News
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
So when it is the Mexican government quoted by FOX News, that is a source that works for this specific occasion? In many aspects (even to prompt their expatriates for data) the Mexican government won't be aware of whom is leaving their country, either legally or illegally (it is argued here that the U.S. government doesn't know, so how is the Mexican government going to know?). And of course this completely goes against what "malamute" attributes, that they use Border Crossing Cards and then don't honor the terms once across.
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Originally Posted by chicagonut
...Here are the stats again on how many Mexicans are here legally and how many are here illegally(estimated).
Mexicans here legally = 276,550. Mexicans here illegally = 6,650,000.
Top 10 legal and illegal immigrant nationalities in the U.S. - OhMyGov News
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
YOu can't even read a chart correctly, nor understand whom it does not include...That is the number of those from Mexico becoming Legal Permanent Residents[EDIT], and those from Mexico naturalizing to U.S. citizenship[/EDIT] only for the year of 2009. It also does not include "non-immigrant" visas that will likely adjust status to Legal Resident, including 'K'-Class visas. I think I have identified most of the major issue here.
YOu have an enormous blockage to accepting reality, and don't even realize when the numbers YOu quote are off by a few decimal places...
I'm going to put YOu into a category with the member YOu are trying to defend, whom says the majority of "Mexicans" present don't pay taxes here, don't have documentation or it is "false", and have some mental association for them to ticks on a dog.
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Originally Posted by chicagonut
What difference does it make? I at first missed what year they were talking about. Mexicans are still here by far legally and illegally in the largest numbers today and we all know that. Why don't you focus on the meat of this fact rather than quibbling about a certain year or certain types of visas? My concern is mostly about the millions that are here illegally. As for legal immigration I think we need to be more diversified.
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
No, YOu quoted the number as if it was the complete, cumulative total of Mexicans that legally came to the United States. YOu sourced data (and had said "here are the stats again" because YOu hadn't caught it before either), not even verifying what it meant. The ratio that YOu hoped to represent about more Mexicans coming illegally fell entirely on its face.
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
It continues unabated: An immigrant that naturalizes (or someone that is born here as a U.S. citizen) is not a 'foreign national' (or rightfully considered an immigrant) by the time time that they have gained the ability to sponsor their Immediate Relatives. A point that I have had to make more repeatably in the last few days is that Hispanics (and the subset of the Mexican-born within that classification) are judged here by a seemingly different standard - That mutually-exclusive phraseology is not being thought through:
"Mexicans are here illegally in far greater numbers, but also able to sponsor far more relatives to come."...
"A Mexican that has naturalized here to gain an ability to sponsor relatives is still called a 'Mexican' instead of an 'American' when they do so, and still called an 'immigrant' when an immigrant cannot sponsor those same relatives."...
"Illegal Aliens (most defined to be Mexican) are 'blocking' other legal immigrants from coming, and especially those from other countries."...
"More shouldn't be allowed to come here the right way because more of them came the wrong way."...
"U.S. citizens are being adversely affected by immigration (both legal and illegal), thus we need to stop their ability to sponsor relatives, and give that privilege to more immigrants that don't have U.S. citizen relatives."...
As said, these irrational loops don't resolve consistently within themselves, but are still used as an entire platform of attempted reasoning...
I can produce many more if you'd like. But, I think the aforementioned clearly proves my point. Anyone who frequents this forum should realize you have consistently denied the legal/illegal Mexican ratio. So, why are you now trying to pretend you have always acknowledged the fact that MOST Mexicans are here illegally?
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
59% of Mexican LPRs granted status in 2011 were "Immediate Relatives" of U.S. citizens, not under any quotas. A majority. There is also a high percentage of Mexican LPRs that qualify (at least for the length of residency) to naturalize, which raises an aspect of whether "encouragement" needs to be applied to lower that percentage.
I don't recall mentioning quotas. But, the fact remains, regardless of method, there are more LPRs and family sponsorship involving Mexicans than any other group. In fact, their number is more than double the second country on the list.
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
Perhaps, but I'm not going to get into that discussion for now...
Why not? I didn't broach the subject, you did. After all, you started this thread, and included that data in your post. Why did you include it, if you don't want it discussed?
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Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
I consider the data realistic. For that value, I will present it whether it is unflattering or not. Do you think I will merely mask what I feel is a legitimate issue if it involves Mexicans?
Yes, it is quasi-realistic, because, as we both know the government lacks accurate data on illegal immigration. However, I am somewhat perplexed by your sudden change in stance. Previously, you consistently tried to refute such data. But, people have been known to evolve.
I know a man whose ex-wife used him to get a green card. As soon as that card was in her hand, she did a 180 and started treating him like garbage. He was dumbfounded. We all were; none of us saw it. Just a few months after she got her GC, she filed for divorce and kicked him out.
I won't divulge her nationality here since it's irrelevant anyway, but I will say this...she's not Mexican, Russian, Ukrainian, Thai, or Filipina...all nationalities with high rates of marriage fraud.
Good catch, Benicar. Nice to see some of my wife's remarks quoted in here from the past and IBM's responses to them. Can't deny the written word now can one?
I haven't moved the goal posts at all. There are approximately 50,000 Hispanics in this country including citizens, the elderly, legal and illegal immigrants and those too young to give birth or that are males...
I think you mean 50 million, a factor of a thousand times higher. Pew Research reports 51.9 million for 2011. That population has increased 48% (from 35.2 million) since 2000:
...Hispanics of Mexican ancestry (both legal and illegal) far outnumber any Hispanics of other nationalities...
False, Hispanics of U.S. nationality outnumber the foreign-born Hispanics of all countries combined within the United States, and it has been that majority (64% in 2011) even in recent years (the lowest it has dipped is 60% in 2000)...
...Since there are nearly 7 million legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico alone here of which according to my source (year 2010) 6.6 million are illegal immigrants and many if not most of child bearing age it is not a stretch to assume that most of the Hispanic growth rate is via illegal immigration especially when you combine other nationalities of Hispanic origin...
Pew Research reports "nearly" 11.7 million Mexican immigrants, which 6.8 million were illegal aliens. If you are quoting a source as "nearly 7 million" Mexican immigrants, with 6.6 million of that as illegal aliens, it doesn't even resolve for 3 recent immigration years. In 2009, 2010, and 2011, there was 447,486 Mexicans becoming Legal Permanent Residents. As I commented earlier on this thread, if the data quoted here is easily seen to be unreliable, throw it out (and don't believe the source).
Legal immigrants (of all nationalities, but being aware that Mexicans are the highest percentage) also have almost a perfect bell curve for the prime child-bearing ages of 25 to 35. They are more populous under age 25 than illegal aliens are. Hispanics are a younger demographic as a whole (a median age of 27), so one segment of the group (illegal aliens) are not going to have vastly different birthrates.
You also need to adjust from your failed source for a closer estimate of the Mexicans with immigration status...
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
...Your source from 2011 says that the combined number both legal and illegals is 11.7 million. Top 10 legal and illegal immigrant nationalities in the U.S. - OhMyGov News...
I've countered your source every time it has been posted here. It is combining naturalization and gained LPR status only for 2009, not the total number of legal immigrants. I think your wife even posted one time that there were only 276,550 legal Mexican immigrants total in the United States using that data!
Yep, here it is, as Benicar's post shows it:
How could someone ever think that there is only 276,550 "Mexicans here legally", when just two years of immigration would grant LPR status to more Mexicans than that?...
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
...I'd like to see a source that shows the growth from Hispanic citizen and their legal immigrant births vs. growth from illegal immigration from their group including their anchor babies for a comparison. I would also like to see a source that breaks out this growth from Mexican ancestry alone. I have a hunch I am right in my assumptions...
No, you (and your wife) have assumed and quoted sources incorrectly that don't bear up to any scrutiny...
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
...Remember also that many of these anchors are old enought to be giving birth in our country also. The point is that it all stems from the initial action of illegal immigration.
Pew Research reports that illegal aliens with children are more likely to be involved with a significant other that has immigration status rather than an illegal alien (30% in a relationship with U.S. citizens, 25% with LPRs, and 45% with another illegal alien). "Anchor Babies" may not be "anchors" in those instances, as there are more immediate cures to illegal status through their spouse than any children. I'll answer the other posts when I have the opportunity, my "big project" took a little longer today.
I think you mean 50 million, a factor of a thousand times higher. Pew Research reports 51.9 million for 2011. That population has increased 48% (from 35.2 million) since 2000:
False, Hispanics of U.S. nationality outnumber the foreign-born Hispanics of all countries combined within the United States, and it has been that majority (64% in 2011) even in recent years (the lowest it has dipped is 60% in 2000)...
Pew Research reports "nearly" 11.7 million Mexican immigrants, which 6.8 million were illegal aliens. If you are quoting a source as "nearly 7 million" Mexican immigrants, with 6.6 million of that as illegal aliens, it doesn't even resolve for 3 recent immigration years. In 2009, 2010, and 2011, there was 447,486 Mexicans becoming Legal Permanent Residents. As I commented earlier on this thread, if the data quoted here is easily seen to be unreliable, throw it out (and don't believe the source).
Legal immigrants (of all nationalities, but being aware that Mexicans are the highest percentage) also have almost a perfect bell curve for the prime child-bearing ages of 25 to 35. They are more populous under age 25 than illegal aliens are. Hispanics are a younger demographic as a whole (a median age of 27), so one segment of the group (illegal aliens) are not going to have vastly different birthrates.
You also need to adjust from your failed source for a closer estimate of the Mexicans with immigration status...
I've countered your source every time it has been posted here. It is combining naturalization and gained LPR status only for 2009, not the total number of legal immigrants. I think your wife even posted one time that there were only 276,550 legal Mexican immigrants total in the United States using that data!
Yep, here it is, as Benicar's post shows it:
How could someone ever think that there is only 276,550 "Mexicans here legally", when just two years of immigration would grant LPR status to more Mexicans than that?...
No, you (and your wife) have assumed and quoted sources incorrectly that don't bear up to any scrutiny...
Pew Research reports that illegal aliens with children are more likely to be involved with a significant other that has immigration status rather than an illegal alien (30% in a relationship with U.S. citizens, 25% with LPRs, and 45% with another illegal alien). "Anchor Babies" may not be "anchors" in those instances, as there are more immediate cures to illegal status through their spouse than any children. I'll answer the other posts when I have the opportunity, my "big project" took a little longer today.
I meant to say that there are around 50 million Hispanics in this country, my typo error. As for the rest you are mixing apples with oranges and spinning the data from the source that I used and going off into all kinds of things that aren't even relevant to the bottom line. Not the first time.
As for this comment of yours below you might want to go back and read what I actually said.
"False, Hispanics of U.S. nationality outnumber the foreign-born Hispanics of all countries combined within the United States, and it has been that majority (64% in 2011) even in recent years (the lowest it has dipped is 60% in 2000)..."
Your above remark did not accurately address what I actually said. I said Hispanics of Mexican "ancestry" in this country outnumber Hispanics from any other ancestoral/national group. Being born on our soil doesn't mean that they don't have Mexican roots. I am done with this.
I meant to say that there are around 50 million Hispanics in this country, my typo error. As for the rest you are mixing apples with oranges and spinning the data from the source that I used and going off into all kinds of things that aren't even relevant to the bottom line. Not the first time...
Highlighted again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory
...Since there are nearly 7 million legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico alone here of which according to my source (year 2010) 6.6 million are illegal immigrants and many if not most of child bearing age it is not a stretch to assume that most of the Hispanic growth rate is via illegal immigration especially when you combine other nationalities of Hispanic origin...
"Nearly 7 million" minus 6.6 million is 400,000 at the very most. Why do you believe a source that states only 400,000 Mexicans (maximum) are here legally, compared to 6.6 million illegally? That is a slight improvement from the statement by your wife:
Both of you have posted about the high volume of legal immigration from Mexico (including you specifically on this thread), but that data seems suddenly forgotten when stating the number of "Mexicans here legally". Why would anyone think that number would be less than two to three years of legal immigrants coming from Mexico? My source reported 58% of Mexicans were here illegally, your "source" calculates that out to somewhere from 94% to 96% (approximately 24 Mexican illegal aliens to every legal Mexican immigrant).
Your "bottom line" seems wildly off any rational data from a wide variety of sources...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory
...As for this comment of yours below you might want to go back and read what I actually said.
"False, Hispanics of U.S. nationality outnumber the foreign-born Hispanics of all countries combined within the United States, and it has been that majority (64% in 2011) even in recent years (the lowest it has dipped is 60% in 2000)..."
Your above remark did not accurately address what I actually said. I said Hispanics of Mexican "ancestry" in this country outnumber Hispanics from any other ancestoral/national group. Being born on our soil doesn't mean that they don't have Mexican roots. I am done with this.
Here is your quote again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory
...Hispanics of Mexican ancestry (both legal and illegal) far outnumber any Hispanics of other nationalities...
Aren't all "Anchor Babies" at least "U.S. Nationals"? 64% of Hispanics in the U.S. in 2011 were born in the United States. You may have individuals negating themselves by being present in both categories (both of "Mexican ancestry", but born in the United States, so having "U.S. nationality"). After the negations cancel out (which actually leads slightly for those of "Mexican origins", 65% to 64%: Hispanic Population Trends), all of the naturalization of foreign-born Hispanics comes into play (which may not be from Mexican origins), hence more "U.S. nationalities" than any others.
My statements are worded exactly as I intend. I will still say things like "more Mexicans enter the United States legally than illegally" (both a "visa overstay" and using a Border Crossing Card to cross and return are "legal" entries). If I have that clarity to my wording, be aware in what detail I am examining counter-claims and statements.
"Nearly 7 million" minus 6.6 million is 400,000 at the very most. Why do you believe a source that states only 400,000 Mexicans (maximum) are here legally, compared to 6.6 million illegally? That is a slight improvement from the statement by your wife:
Both of you have posted about the high volume of legal immigration from Mexico (including you specifically on this thread), but that data seems suddenly forgotten when stating the number of "Mexicans here legally". Why would anyone think that number would be less than two to three years of legal immigrants coming from Mexico? My source reported 58% of Mexicans were here illegally, your "source" calculates that out to somewhere from 94% to 96% (approximately 24 Mexican illegal aliens to every legal Mexican immigrant).
Your "bottom line" seems wildly off any rational data from a wide variety of sources...
Here is your quote again:
Aren't all "Anchor Babies" at least "U.S. Nationals"? 64% of Hispanics in the U.S. in 2011 were born in the United States. You may have individuals negating themselves by being present in both categories (both of "Mexican ancestry", but born in the United States, so having "U.S. nationality"). After the negations cancel out (which actually leads slightly for those of "Mexican origins", 65% to 64%: Hispanic Population Trends), all of the naturalization of foreign-born Hispanics comes into play (which may not be from Mexican origins), hence more "U.S. nationalities" than any others.
My statements are worded exactly as I intend. I will still say things like "more Mexicans enter the United States legally than illegally" (both a "visa overstay" and using a Border Crossing Card to cross and return are "legal" entries). If I have that clarity to my wording, be aware in what detail I am examining counter-claims and statements.
I said I am done with this yet you keep going on anyway. You are still spinning what I said about most Hispanics in this country (whether foreign born or U.S. born) being from Mexican "roots" among other things. You can deviate from the bottom line with all kinds of other stats but it doesn't change the facts. Still waiting for you to respond to Benicar's post.
Quote from the article: "The foreign born from Mexico gained LPR status mostly through family reunification. About 89 percent obtained green cards through family relationships, 6 percent through employment, and 5 percent through other routes, including a small number of refugees or asylees".
How did we get so many people of Mexican ancestry living here in the first place with so many of their family members still living in Mexico that accounts for the 89% stat above? How and why do so many of their families voluntarily divide themselves in this manner that requires reunification on our soil?
That last very huge amnesty.
There were an estimated 300,000 illegals living in the USA in the early 1980s. The fraud was so massive that over 3,000,000 arrived to get in on it, many had never before stepped foot in the US. Once they're given legal status, they can sponsor children, spouses and so many come. Once those newly sponsored come in legally, they too can legally bring in their families. Soon many a get citizenship which allows them to sponsor extended famillies, adult children with their spouses and children, and elderly parents. Every one of these can then repeat the process.
Then there has been all that birth tourism, and once reaching adulthood the anchor babies can start sponsoring spouses and children, siblings with spouses and their children, parents with spouses.
In addition as any kid of documentation can be purchased in the sending countries, cousins, neighbors, friends, etc can be claimed as siblings. Plus green card marriage fraud is huge.
On top of that, many illegals find a US citizen to marry and quickly gain legal status and citizenship in just 3 years and then they can start legally bringing in adult siblings with spouses and children, parents with spouses and children, their own children.
None of these immigrants needs to learn English or much of English, they don't need any education or job skills.
There were an estimated 300,000 illegals living in the USA in the early 1980s. The fraud was so massive that over 3,000,000 arrived to get in on it, many had never before stepped foot in the US. Once they're given legal status, they can sponsor children, spouses and so many come. Once those newly sponsored come in legally, they too can legally bring in their families. Soon many a get citizenship which allows them to sponsor extended famillies, adult children with their spouses and children, and elderly parents. Every one of these can then repeat the process.
Then there has been all that birth tourism, and once reaching adulthood the anchor babies can start sponsoring spouses and children, siblings with spouses and their children, parents with spouses.
In addition as any kid of documentation can be purchased in the sending countries, cousins, neighbors, friends, etc can be claimed as siblings. Plus green card marriage fraud is huge.
On top of that, many illegals find a US citizen to marry and quickly gain legal status and citizenship in just 3 years and then they can start legally bringing in adult siblings with spouses and children, parents with spouses and children, their own children.
None of these immigrants needs to learn English or much of English, they don't need any education or job skills.
The thing is though is that the 1986 amnesty was nearly 30 years ago. How many of those amnestied back then would still have immediate family in Mexico? I would think that most of the amnestied would be at least in their 50's, 60's or older now so how much family would be remaining in Mexico and still alive that requires a family ruinification here on our soil today? It just makes no sense to me.
Last edited by Oldglory; 03-08-2013 at 08:15 AM..
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But, if you want to revisit the thread in question, please note the following. For the record, I wasn't avoiding your questions in that thread. I have simply been too busy lately to post. Mind you, this is only a drop in the bucket. Marriage fraud is rampant, not only for Mexicans, but numerous other nationalities. So yes, it is only human nature to be suspicious of marriages between U.S. citizens and illegal aliens. Heck, I wouldn't marry a legal immigrant if he didn't already have a green card. 
