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Old 08-31-2008, 10:13 PM
 
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Well --- I sure would not want to be the president of one of those countries tasked with the job of reforming it.

Some of the people are very good, some are very bad and I think most just go with the flow but would likely resist change.
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Old 08-31-2008, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I think for many it is going to be hard to change the two-class system where someone born into poverty is viewed quite differently.

The American attitude is that you can be born rich or you can be born poor, or middle class and if you just have a good work ethic, you should be able to make it. And that attitude can seem harsh because it assumes everyone can make it if they simply choose to do so.

It's a good attitude in a deeper way because it assumes an equality. You are not locked into your class, you should not feel locked in. We like the rags to riches stories and sometimes the riches to rags stories even more because they both work to our basic equality.

In other cultures it's different, if you're born rich, then you can expect to stay that, if you're born poor then no amount of hard work is going to change that. That works out very well for those cultures that believe in having a large servant class and that some people should never have to do yard work or make their own bed.

That was the funny thing about so many of the pro-illegals -- they would say things like "well who is going to mow your yard?", "who is going to cook your food?", "who is going to make your bed, tend to your children?", and the middle class just scratched our heads because it never occurred to us that we had to have servants to do all that for us.
An extremely profound post! It elucidates the connection between culture and our mindset. I guess I never thought of the fact that some people simply donít expect much out of life.
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Old 08-31-2008, 10:23 PM
 
Location: S.Florida
3,325 posts, read 4,695,483 times
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well --- I sure would not want to be the president of one of those countries tasked with the job of reforming it.

Some of the people are very good, some are very bad and I think most just go with the flow but would likely resist change.
------------

As you know Latin America isn't like here no check's and balances . A Pres can bring change their power is huge .

Most have no intention of change unless it's "change" for their bank account. The few that bring change it's not much.
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Old 09-01-2008, 11:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
That's exactly what keeps the corruption going. Everyone takes the attitude that it's best to participate, everyone benefits after all, and so nothing changes. Mexican cops learn to roll everyone, everyone accepts that, it's part of the culture after all, and so it goes on.

It's going to take a big change in the mindset before things improve.

I fail to see the correlation between law enforcement corruption and culture. Simply claiming facts about a culture that you're not apart of really shows how ignorant you are. "Those honor killings in Iraq must be part of Iraqi culture." Even though there are groups that are fighting against this practice.
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
I fail to see the correlation between law enforcement corruption and culture. Simply claiming facts about a culture that you're not apart of really shows how ignorant you are. "Those honor killings in Iraq must be part of Iraqi culture." Even though there are groups that are fighting against this practice.
You yourself brag about bribing cops in Mexico. So you might not see that all that is part of the problem. How can you condemn the Mexican cops when you participate in this practice? Those who offer bribes are just as corrupt.
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You yourself brag about bribing cops in Mexico. So you might not see that all that is part of the problem. How can you condemn the Mexican cops when you participate in this practice? Those who offer bribes are just as corrupt.
I brag about bribing cops? I mentioned it was a hastle not to pay them off. However, that is only when I bring my vehicle. I am no longer driving in Mexico due to the driving conditions. Besides, don't "overlook" the fact that you claimed it was apart of Mexican culture. You never commented on that and am awaiting a reply.
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:46 PM
 
Location: S.Florida
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You yourself brag about bribing cops in Mexico. So you might not see that all that is part of the problem. How can you condemn the Mexican cops when you participate in this practice? Those who offer bribes are just as corrupt.
--------

My boss was recently in Panama for business. He drove in some side dirt road like 10 mph .

No limit posted but 10 Mph seemed okay. He was pulled over by Panama military .

They told him he was going to fast and for $20 they over look it and he could drive even faster.

He paid it would be suicide not to . You don't have much of a choice .
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:47 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,745,541 times
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
I brag about bribing cops? I mentioned it was a hastle not to pay them off. However, that is only when I bring my vehicle. I am no longer driving in Mexico due to the driving conditions. Besides, don't "overlook" the fact that you claimed it was apart of Mexican culture. You never commented on that and am awaiting a reply.
The mordida has long been part of the culture of Mexico.

I can seem like a minor thing -- after all who wouldn't prefer to pay $20 and be on his way and it's really not so fun to pay a ticket or have to show up to court. It's been that way in Mexico -- mordidas grease the wheels for you. Back before cell phones, you could face a two year wait for phone service or pay a mordida and face only months. Want to bring something through Mexican customs that isn't allowed? Just start getting out your wallet.

It's not that the Mexican Constitution or it's laws makes the bribe system. It's people. It's someone waving some cash in front of what they know is a poorly paid cop. Cop gets tempted, after all he's got kids to feed, his pay is ridiculously low. Cop likely paid plenty of mordidas himself before becoming a cop.

Little mordidas themselves aren't really a big deal but it's that one thing leads to another. A culture of corruption develops. People accept little bribes, they accept moderate sized bribes and next thing you know, they accept big bribes. Before you know it -- nearly EVERYBODY is doing it. Bribing or being bribed. It's like lies -- tell a little lie and decide it's okay, then the bigger lies don't seem like a big deal.

So yes -- it is part of the culture which makes it especially hard to change. It's not a matter of a corrupt cop here and there or a handful of corrupt people trying to bribe their way on everything. It's virtually everyone. Maybe 90%? I'm not sure if even 10% have never made or taken a bribe, it could be more like 5%.

How do you clean up that kind of thing? You have to have honest cops arrest those who offer them bribes -- but if it's virtually everyone then that doesn't work. Or you arrest any cop trying to take a bribe that everyone's offering and where do you find all the new cops to replace them?
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:58 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 853,260 times
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The mordida has long been part of the culture of Mexico.

I can seem like a minor thing -- after all who wouldn't prefer to pay $20 and be on his way and it's really not so fun to pay a ticket or have to show up to court. It's been that way in Mexico -- mordidas grease the wheels for you. Back before cell phones, you could face a two year wait for phone service or pay a mordida and face only months. Want to bring something through Mexican customs that isn't allowed? Just start getting out your wallet.

It's not that the Mexican Constitution or it's laws makes the bribe system. It's people. It's someone waving some cash in front of what they know is a poorly paid cop. Cop gets tempted, after all he's got kids to feed, his pay is ridiculously low. Cop likely paid plenty of mordidas himself before becoming a cop.

Little mordidas themselves aren't really a big deal but it's that one thing leads to another. A culture of corruption develops. People accept little bribes, they accept moderate sized bribes and next thing you know, they accept big bribes. Before you know it -- nearly EVERYBODY is doing it. Bribing or being bribed. It's like lies -- tell a little lie and decide it's okay, then the bigger lies don't seem like a big deal.

I guess the rest of the world where you are able to pay off cops has become part of their culture too . Have there not been instances in the U.S of judges and cops who have been bribed as well? Is it part of our culture?

So yes -- it is part of the culture which makes it especially hard to change. It's not a matter of a corrupt cop here and there or a handful of corrupt people trying to bribe their way on everything. It's virtually everyone. Maybe 90%? I'm not sure if even 10% have never made or taken a bribe, it could be more like 5%.

Of course, this "bribe" happens all over the world-- not just Mexico as noted above my Luiso. How can you say something is part of a culture if you do not belong to the culture? I still cannot comprehend that, nor have you made any attempt to.

How do you clean up that kind of thing? You have to have honest cops arrest those who offer them bribes -- but if it's virtually everyone then that doesn't work. Or you arrest any cop trying to take a bribe that everyone's offering and where do you find all the new cops to replace them?

Police chiefs come and go, there are even hotlines to report corrupt police officers and yet nothing changes. At least in the pueblos, nothing ever does.
..........................
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,176,004 times
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Jeezus Californio, you're going to try to compare America to Mexico when it comes to 'the bite'?

Mordida is a cultural ICON in Mexico, from the bottom of the totem pole all the way up to the nosebleeds! You are REALLY grasping at straws with that position...
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