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Old 05-06-2011, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,041 posts, read 4,203,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Dan View Post
But isnt that what Christians do too? All you have to base debate on is the Bible. A book written by humans. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
Actually, I'm a big fan of, “Question with boldness even the existence of a God. Question everything.” I don't think "because the Bible says so" or "because the Quran says so" is any kind of basis for anything, at least not on its own. The automatic presumption that "my book is right and yours is wrong" is a dumb argument.

I'm willing to venture into the wild and wacky world of 0 AD through 600 AD contemporary histories to see if finalmessage can establish that the Muslim version of things is in any way more likely than the Christian version of things. finalmessage isn't going there and doesn't seem to have any notion of the contemporary history of 0-33AD. What he definitely has managed to do is repeatedly quote the Quran a lot. The Quran version of things, especially the birth of Jesus, just doesn't make any sense as a Jewish woman living in Judea at the time. If you're familiar with the story then I think you know what I mean.

You'll have to excuse me if I find the constant quoting from the Quran to be annoying. I'm of the opinion that you need to solidly establish that the Quran is superior and more correct than the Bible before that makes any sense at all to constantly quote it as "the truest source of facts."

We both accept that Jesus Christ did indeed exist. We both accept him as the Jewish Messiah. We differ on some of the finer details after that. finalmessage have provided a video that was obviously staged and a link to a massively uneducated Muslim "scholar" saying why the Bible is less correct. The latter comes with gems like, "Matthew the Levite who was a disciple of the Messiah." Pretty obvious that they are just skimming through Christian works if they came up with that. Christian scholars generally agree that Matthew was the same person as Levi son of Alpheus, but a Levite is a completely different animal. After that, the level of ignorance gets too painful for words. No well thought out well studied point of view has been presented by finalmessage, so I'm left to assume that he doesn't have one.

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 05-06-2011 at 09:11 PM..
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,240 posts, read 1,057,439 times
Reputation: 119
As a believer in the redemptive work of God in Jesus, I can not exclude from God's work of redemption the whole of mankind.

Why would God in Jesus state, "love your enemies" if God did not also love them too?

You see, when we can understand the works of God as God's works in our behalf, then we can take out the human element of discrimination that is in our religious beliefs, and call each other brothers and sisters.

Now, would God be so unwise to not see the divisions in humanity?

Are we not aware that God is the creator of the DNA of all things in life and thus knows exactly the potential of it all?

If I were born to a Muslim family, in a Muslim country with Muslim beliefs: how much of a choice would I have to not being a Muslim?

By the same token, how much choice would I have in not being born into a Christian family, a Jewish family or into any other religious belief?

You see, we don't and didn't have a choice in the matter.

We are what we are, who we are and what we presently believe.

If God did not know all that prior to His creation, then He made a mistake.

So, what now?

If we can understand that God in Jesus made of us all brothers and sisters, then who is our enemy?

If we, as brothers and sisters can not get along as a family then it is nobody's fault but our own.

God the creator created and also saves His creation.

You tell me what part did we play in that creation?

Can we, Christian, Muslim, and or Jew affect anything God chooses to do?

The only power granted us as humans is the ability to make choices on our own.

Think about it.

Blessings, AJ
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:59 AM
 
1,220 posts, read 781,494 times
Reputation: 122
Default The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The Koran says that Jesus was a prophet sent by God, and that a prophet sent by God can not lie. We know that and understand: Jesus Christ is Lord, the only son of the blessed and living God. And the blessings of Jesus Christ the Eternal One brings you peace beyond all his wisdom from the Koran. Amen .... The Truth
Moderator cut: edit The actual translation Mystic is "Know therefore and understand that Jesus is the Christ, the only begotten Son of the blessed and living G-d. The Blessings of The Eternal One bring you the peace of His Christ which surpasses all of your wisdom which you derive from the Quran. Peas and hominy...

p.s. this was of course directed to the original poster

Last edited by june 7th; 05-09-2011 at 08:03 AM.. Reason: Uncertain reference to moderator. (???)
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Old 05-07-2011, 02:23 PM
 
40,094 posts, read 26,755,929 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
No well thought out well studied point of view has been presented by finalmessage, so I'm left to assume that he doesn't have one.
This can be said of most of the "cut and paste" Muslim posters who are simply engaged in spamming the forum with their propaganda videos and articles. There is very little if any real discussion . . . just quoting of the Qu'ran or videos . . . it is very annoying and completely worthless.
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Old 05-07-2011, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,776,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This can be said of most of the "cut and paste" Muslim posters who are simply engaged in spamming the forum with their propaganda videos and articles. There is very little if any real discussion . . . just quoting of the Qu'ran or videos . . . it is very annoying and completely worthless.
I agree, and have no idea why it is even allowed.
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Old 05-07-2011, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,041 posts, read 4,203,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
Okay, I'll play.

First problem I'm seeing is the statement that the Quran is "the Last Testament." I don't believe that God arbitrarily just stops talking to humankind. There have been significant gaps where there wasn't anything written that you could quite call scripture, but if God sent a new prophet to us tomorrow it is 100% within his rights to do so. Notions of the cessation of relelation, miracles, etc are a sad attempt to handcuff and limit that which is all-powerful and limitless. And this Muslim -- I presume he's a scholar? -- does not establish any reason God must of necessity cease communicating with humankind or to communicate less directly. In this concept I already know that I differ from many Christians, but it is completely illogical for God to arbitrarily hand humankind a book and then withdraw and expect us to figure it out for ourselves. The possibility of future scripture, prophets and messages from God is a door I refuse to believe has ever been sealed shut. Why would God do such a thing if he loves us?

The whole notion of "being a Muslim at heart" is actually something I wholeheartedly agree with, at least in principal. Not saying I agree that Islam is the true way, but I do believe that God accepts all who truly seeks him and is able to see the good in others. The problem here is that Islam as a whole might be saying this, but they're doing exactly the opposite. Every Arab nation in the world is either overtly hostile to the USA and Israel, or has a strong movement amongst it's Muslim citizens along those lines. Armenian, Assyrian and Coptic Christians have been horribly mistreated by Muslims. The nation of Turkey doesn't even have the decency to admit that the Armenian Holocaust ever happened. Nope, apparently 1.5 million Armenian Christians just died of famine after the Turks relocated them for their own protection ...

You see such persecutors justify their actions by passages in the Quran -- and yes those passages seem to say "kill the infidel if he will not accept Islam!" I believe "by their fruits you shall know them" is a true and wise statement, even if you don't believe in Jesus at all. It's just good sense afterall. Right now, far too much of the fruits of Islam are rotten. Far too few are good. I have seen and known Muslims in the USA who really do live the idea, "good people, good teachings, live and let live." They live in a nation where they are a tiny minority. Yet if you go to where Muslims are the clear majority, all that seems to go right out the window. The predominantly Muslim nations in the world are the most backward, unproductive and unsophisticated in the world with very few exceptions.

The "which Bible" business is a clever misdirection. Anyone who has ever learned a foreign language can tell you the same thing: Some words don't translate perfectly. Some meanings, metaphors and idioms are best translated into their intended meaning rather than word for word. There are lots of versions of the Bible because translating ancient text isn't a perfect science. But is the Quran any different? For starters, after Muhammed's death, the early attempts at compiling the words of Muhammed into one book were confronted with a broad array of bits and pieces of what Muhammed said, yet many of them disagreed or contradicted each other. So rather than leave it be, they destroyed whatever version they deemed inferior. The changes many things to ensure that Muhammed never contradicts himself. Unbiased scholarly research agrees that the Quran is incomplete: It does not contain everything the angel Gabriel supposedly said to Muhammed that he then recited back to his followers. And the words have been edited, changed and updated on more than one occasion.

Now it's obvious where the speaker in your video is going with this: He is going to point out that different translations of the Bible differ. The four Gospels or accounts of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ do not agree perfectly in all cases. But I would point out that anytime you have two witnesses to the same series of events, they remember things differently. The fact that the four Gospels retain many of these small differences is compelling evidence that the material has not undergone the same degree of revision as we see with the Quran. If early Christians had been dilligently seeking to "correct" the Biblical text rather than just preserve it unblemished, we would see no disagreement whatsoever in between the four Gospels. The transcription of the writings of the apostles is not perfect certainly, but there were very few attempts to change those writings intentionally.

I am linking the videos, not because I believe that everything this Christian fellow is saying is true. I am curious if this man has any basis in fact for what he's claiming:


YouTube - Changes of the Quran 1-3

YouTube - Changes of the Quran 2-3

YouTube - Changes of the Quran 3-3

The thing that is curious to me is the fact that this man Zakaria Botros is a Coptic Priest in Egypt. He unexpectedly "retired" from the Al hayat TV Christian channel and little has been heard from him since. Obvious enough, he was silenced for daring to question the Quran and other aspects of the Islam. But if he had to be silenced, it tends add credibility to his statements. If he was making it all up, there would be no need to shut him up. So obviously the Muslims in Egypt felt threatened by him. Why?

As far as I can see, the difference between modern scholars of Islam and modern scholars of Christianity is that the Christians at least try to answer their critics. They don't just threaten them and forcibly shut them up. (This was not always the case. Christianity spent years maintaining orthodoxy and defending Christendom by violence, torture and death. But those days are long gone, thank heavens.)

I do feel that it is unhealthy for any religion to habitually seek to end criticism by threatening critics with violence, assassination or execution.

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 05-07-2011 at 06:33 PM..
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Old 05-07-2011, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 10,791,229 times
Reputation: 7242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
Interesting in itself is that the Koran also testifies to both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Gospel accounts: Surah 3. Al-I-Imran (3:3) “He has revealed this Book to you, setting forth the truth and confirming the earlier Books, and earlier He revealed the Torah and Gospel.”


Seems like muslims want to contrast Muhammad's own testament to the accuracy of what is recorded in scripture. And guess what, Muhammad isn't in there, but Jesus surely is and it is clear on what was revealed about him.

The distortions came in centuries later when the koran was dreamed up. If you understood the immutability of God, you would understand why he would not contradict himself with a work such as the koran.
Isnt it funny how people are soooo good at seeing the flaws in competing religions, but when it comes to their own they become completly blind???????????
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,041 posts, read 4,203,794 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S. 123 View Post
Isnt it funny how people are soooo good at seeing the flaws in competing religions, but when it comes to their own they become completly blind???????????
Hey look at the very first post of the thread.

"We Muslims are right and have the real and flawless story of Jesus. You Christians are wrong and your version of his life is massively distorted full of lies. We will now proceed to tell you why everything you believe in is a pack of garbage and lies."

This is what's called picking a fight.

Doesn't mean I'm blind to every criticism of my own beliefs. Quite frankly, the atheist on this board can't seem to shut up about them. At the end of the day, having someone to challenge the validity of what you believe in can be healthy and good. You get to find out very quickly whether you really believe or if you're just in it because that's what mommy and daddy believed in.
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 10,791,229 times
Reputation: 7242
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Hey look at the very first post of the thread.
.
I tried, but couldnt bring myself to read more than the first few sentences of all that blather
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:47 AM
 
48 posts, read 45,398 times
Reputation: 11
[quote=godofthunder9010;19058929]Okay, I'll play.

First problem I'm seeing is the statement that the Quran is "the Last Testament." I don't believe that God arbitrarily just stops talking to humankind. There have been significant gaps where there wasn't anything written that you could quite call scripture, but if God sent a new prophet to us tomorrow it is 100% within his rights to do so. Notions of the cessation of relelation, miracles, etc are a sad attempt to handcuff and limit that which is all-powerful and limitless. And this Muslim -- I presume he's a scholar? -- does not establish any reason God must of necessity cease communicating with humankind or to communicate less directly. In this concept I already know that I differ from many Christians, but it is completely illogical for God to arbitrarily hand humankind a book and then withdraw and expect us to figure it out for ourselves. The possibility of future scripture, prophets and messages from God is a door I refuse to believe has ever been sealed shut. Why would God do such a thing if he loves us?
You see such persecutors justify their actions by passages in the Quran -- and yes those passages seem to say "kill the infidel if he will not accept Islam!" I believe "by their fruits you shall know them" is a true and wise statement, even if you don't believe in Jesus at all. It's just good sense afterall. Right now, far too much of the fruits of Islam are rotten. Far too few are good. I have seen and known Muslims in the USA who really do live the idea, "good people, good teachings, live and let live." They live in a nation where they are a tiny minority. Yet if you go to where Muslims are the clear majority, all that seems to go right out the window. The predominantly Muslim nations in the world are the most backward, unproductive and unsophisticated in the world with very few exceptions. that is more than funny if there someone told you about your best friend is Thief while you know all the thing about your friend is more than good and while you know before this guy liar and Enemy
for your friend you will believe that or you will trying to looking for true give me clear Proof do not give me from liar guy This priest see to most of peolpe convert to islam make him crazy the enemy of true more than dust
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