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Old 08-09-2015, 09:56 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
I am not sure if you have read the story you quoted. The Prophet did not lie, he swore he would not give them camels in a situation where he had few camels to give people. Then, he was blessed with a surplus of camels, that's why he expiated his oath and gave charity by giving them camels. He did not lie to anybody, he swore to do a thing and God changed the situation so he expiated his oath.

This really has nothing to do with lying to anybody, except for a stubborn atheist.
This is a situation where Muhammed said he would break his oath if it suited him:

"if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

This story was told to a man as an example that he need not keep his oath about eating chicken because Muhammed himself says he doesn't keep his oaths if something better comes along.

Another example:

"Muhammad's wife Hafsa once caught him in her bed with another woman—his slave-girl, Mary the Copt. Seeking to avoid further conflict, Muhammad promised that he would stop having sex with Mary. Later, however, Muhammad received one of his infamous morally convenient revelations from Allah.

Qur'an 66:1-2—O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise."

Answering Muslims: Muhammad Breaks His Oath to His Wives

 
Old 08-09-2015, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
This is a situation where Muhammed said he would break his oath if it suited him:

"if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

This story was told to a man as an example that he need not keep his oath about eating chicken because Muhammed himself says he doesn't keep his oaths if something better comes along.

Another example:

"Muhammad's wife Hafsa once caught him in her bed with another woman—his slave-girl, Mary the Copt. Seeking to avoid further conflict, Muhammad promised that he would stop having sex with Mary. Later, however, Muhammad received one of his infamous morally convenient revelations from Allah.

Qur'an 66:1-2—O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise."

Answering Muslims: Muhammad Breaks His Oath to His Wives
So if I take an oath to pay you $10 for building a widget. But you do such a good job I would like to pay you $50 I have to stick with the $10 because I took an oath to pay you $10.

From your link can you show a source for the hadith

Quote:
Sunan An-Nasa'i 3411—It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you" [66:1] until the end of the verse.
I can not find that among any Authenticated, reliable Hadith.

While it is one of the "Kutub as-Sittah" it is number 5 on the list in terms of Authenticity and Reliability. It is weak in terms of reliability as there is only one alleged witness that claims Muhammad(saws) said that.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-09-2015 at 10:36 AM..
 
Old 08-09-2015, 11:34 AM
 
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"While it is one of the "Kutub as-Sittah" it is number 5 on the list in terms of Authenticity and Reliability. It is weak in terms of reliability as there is only one alleged witness that claims Muhammad(saws) said that."

It sure fits in with what the Quran says!! Let me know when that hadith is removed...in fact, why hasn't Allah removed it if it's false? I think a being that powerful would just zap all the false hadiths. Obviously allah knows which are false!

"From your link can you show a source for the hadith?"

The Book of the Kind Treatment of Women - Sunan an-Nasa'i - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (??? ???? ???? ? ???)
It's about 2/3rds down the page.

"So if I take an oath to pay you $10 for building a widget. But you do such a good job I would like to pay you $50 I have to stick with the $10 because I took an oath to pay you $10."

Think in PRINCIPLE. The point is that Muhammed's PRINCIPLE is: "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

This applies to any oath Muhammed takes. It's a principle that can be shortened to: My oaths are worthless
 
Old 08-09-2015, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"While it is one of the "Kutub as-Sittah" it is number 5 on the list in terms of Authenticity and Reliability. It is weak in terms of reliability as there is only one alleged witness that claims Muhammad(saws) said that."

It sure fits in with what the Quran says!! Let me know when that hadith is removed...in fact, why hasn't Allah removed it if it's false? I think a being that powerful would just zap all the false hadiths. Obviously allah knows which are false!

"From your link can you show a source for the hadith?"

The Book of the Kind Treatment of Women - Sunan an-Nasa'i - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (??? ???? ???? ? ???)
It's about 2/3rds down the page.

"So if I take an oath to pay you $10 for building a widget. But you do such a good job I would like to pay you $50 I have to stick with the $10 because I took an oath to pay you $10."

Think in PRINCIPLE. The point is that Muhammed's PRINCIPLE is: "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

This applies to any oath Muhammed takes. It's a principle that can be shortened to: My oaths are worthless
It means the oath is the minimum promised. If the conditions warrant more than what the oath agreed upon one should give the better, although they are not obligated to
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Old 08-09-2015, 01:11 PM
 
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"It means the oath is the minimum promised. "

Nope. It means just what it says: "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

Quran 66:1 - 2 "O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise."
 
Old 08-09-2015, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"It means the oath is the minimum promised. "

Nope. It means just what it says: "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath."

Quran 66:1 - 2 "O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise."
Surah 66 is quite interesting. It was revealed as an admonishment to Muhammad)saws) he is being rebuked for making unlawful that which was lawfui by taking an oath he had no right to take.

Maududi's Tafsir explains it better.

Quote:
The fourth thing that we learn from this discourse is that about the Holy Messenger himself, whose reverence and respect Allah Himself has enjoined as a necessary part of the Faith of His servants, it has been stated in this Surah that once during his sacred life he made a thing declared lawful by Allah unlawful for himself only to please his wives; then Allah has severely reproved for their errors those very wives of the Holy Prophet, whom He Himself has declared as mothers of the faithful and worthy of the highest esteem and honor by them. Then, this criticism of the Prophet and the administration of the warning to the wives also has not been made secretly but included in the Book, which the entire Ummah has to read and recite for ever. Obviously, neither the intention of making mention of it in the Book of Allah was, nor it could be, that Allah wanted to degrade His Messenger and the mothers of the faithful in the eyes of the believers; and this also is obvious that no Muslim has lost respect for them, in his heart after reading this Surah of the Qur'an. Now, there cannot be any other reason of mentioning this thing in the Qur'an than that Allah wants to acquaint the believers with the correct manner of reverence for their great personalities. The Prophet is a Prophet, not God, that he may commit no error. Respect of the Prophet has not been enjoined because he is infallible, but because he is a perfect representative of Divine Will, and Allah has not permitted any of his errors to pass by unnoticed.
The whole Tafsir can be read HERE

Quite interesting that the admonishment is made public for all people to see for all time.

All 12 Ayyats of the surah should be read together to see the full rebuke of Muhammad(saws) presumption and how Allaah(swt) rebuked him.
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Old 08-09-2015, 02:21 PM
 
1,244 posts, read 709,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post

This story was told to a man as an example that he need not keep his oath about eating chicken because Muhammed himself says he doesn't keep his oaths if something better comes along.
If you keep pretending not understanding the difference between swearing not to do a thing, and lying, maybe there is no need for you to engage in a conversation on that topic.
 
Old 08-09-2015, 03:27 PM
 
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Let's see....Allah told Muhammed that it's OK to rape/have sex with captive women and slaves (even if you are married) while Muhammed's men were reluctant to mass rape women in front of their husbands.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


This did not mean that Muslims have made an oath with allah to have sex with them. Unless you are telling me that Allah is forcing Muslims to have sex with captive women and slaves no matter if they want to or not??

Then Muhammed gets caught in bed with one of his slaves by one of his many wives. BIG TROUBLE as Muhammed had already promised a schedule of sexual activity to his wives that did not include this slave. This is Muhammed's first lie - that he would stay out of the beds of women not on the schedule for sex.

"It is related that Mohammed was alone in company with Mary in Ayshah's or Hafsah's turn. Hafsah became aware of that and therefore scolded him about it. He declared he had taken an oath, but admitted his unlawful behaviour, therefore these verses descended." ("Mizanu'l Haqq, page 330). (The "Mishkat" names Zainab instead of Hafsah - "Mishkat" II, pages 680-681).

Rauzatu'r Safâ , Vol. II, page 188):
"Mary (the Copt) was a Christian slave given to Mohammed 7 A.H. (628 A.D.) by the Governor of Egypt, Elmokaukas. Her sister, Shereena was also given at the same time. Mohammed became intimate with Mary and she bore him Ibrahim, who died in 10 A.H. The intimacy took place in the home and bed of his wife Hafsah (daughter of Umar) who was absent at that moment and on the day which was either her or Ayshah's turn. When Hafsah found this out and questioned him he promised (on oath) not to touch Mary again if she would keep this a secret, and promised that Umar and Abu-Bakr should be his successors. Hafsah, however, told Ayshah about this event, and for a full month Mohammed had no dealings with any of his wives, living with Mary alone." During that period this "revelation" was given. ("Der Koran", translated by Ludwig Ullman, Footnote 2 of Sura 66:1-2, page 456).

Another source tells us:
As she waited for them to come out, her jealousy broke all bounds. When, finally, Mariyah left the quarters and Hafsah entered, she said to the Prophet: "I have seen who was here. By God, that was an insult to me. You would not have dared to do that if I amounted to anything at all in your eyes". At the moment Muhammad realized that such deep-lying jealousy might even move Hafsah to broadcast what she had seen among the other wives. In an attempt to please her, Muhammad promised that he would not go unto Mariyah if she would only refrain from broadcasting what she had seen. (Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 436).

"Muhammad's wives had to take revolving "turns" to be with their husband. Muhammad ignored his own system and had sexual relations with Mary the Copt on a day that was either Hafsah's or Aishah's "turn". Hafsah discovered Muhammad's breach of protocol and became upset. Muhammad promised her that he would not have sexual relations with Mary, probably out of fear that Hafsah would tell his favorite wife, Aishah - whom he married when she was a child of about 9 years of age.

Hafsah and Aishah were, according to the traditions, often competitors for Muhammad's attention, and Hafsah told Aishah the entire sordid story. We can only imagine the anger of Aishah and the other wives of Muhammad. In retaliation, Muhammad boycotted the other wives, in respect to his sexual relations with them, and co-habitated exclusively with Mary. After one month, we are told by the traditions and the Qur'an that Almighty God intervened on Muhammad's behalf."

Tafsir: Sura 66
 
Old 08-09-2015, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Let's see....Allah told Muhammed that it's OK to rape/have sex with captive women and slaves (even if you are married) while Muhammed's men were reluctant to mass rape women in front of their husbands.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


This did not mean that Muslims have made an oath with allah to have sex with them. Unless you are telling me that Allah is forcing Muslims to have sex with captive women and slaves no matter if they want to or not??

Then Muhammed gets caught in bed with one of his slaves by one of his many wives. BIG TROUBLE as Muhammed had already promised a schedule of sexual activity to his wives that did not include this slave. This is Muhammed's first lie - that he would stay out of the beds of women not on the schedule for sex.

"It is related that Mohammed was alone in company with Mary in Ayshah's or Hafsah's turn. Hafsah became aware of that and therefore scolded him about it. He declared he had taken an oath, but admitted his unlawful behaviour, therefore these verses descended." ("Mizanu'l Haqq, page 330). (The "Mishkat" names Zainab instead of Hafsah - "Mishkat" II, pages 680-681).

Rauzatu'r Safâ , Vol. II, page 188):
"Mary (the Copt) was a Christian slave given to Mohammed 7 A.H. (628 A.D.) by the Governor of Egypt, Elmokaukas. Her sister, Shereena was also given at the same time. Mohammed became intimate with Mary and she bore him Ibrahim, who died in 10 A.H. The intimacy took place in the home and bed of his wife Hafsah (daughter of Umar) who was absent at that moment and on the day which was either her or Ayshah's turn. When Hafsah found this out and questioned him he promised (on oath) not to touch Mary again if she would keep this a secret, and promised that Umar and Abu-Bakr should be his successors. Hafsah, however, told Ayshah about this event, and for a full month Mohammed had no dealings with any of his wives, living with Mary alone." During that period this "revelation" was given. ("Der Koran", translated by Ludwig Ullman, Footnote 2 of Sura 66:1-2, page 456).

Another source tells us:
As she waited for them to come out, her jealousy broke all bounds. When, finally, Mariyah left the quarters and Hafsah entered, she said to the Prophet: "I have seen who was here. By God, that was an insult to me. You would not have dared to do that if I amounted to anything at all in your eyes". At the moment Muhammad realized that such deep-lying jealousy might even move Hafsah to broadcast what she had seen among the other wives. In an attempt to please her, Muhammad promised that he would not go unto Mariyah if she would only refrain from broadcasting what she had seen. (Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 436).

"Muhammad's wives had to take revolving "turns" to be with their husband. Muhammad ignored his own system and had sexual relations with Mary the Copt on a day that was either Hafsah's or Aishah's "turn". Hafsah discovered Muhammad's breach of protocol and became upset. Muhammad promised her that he would not have sexual relations with Mary, probably out of fear that Hafsah would tell his favorite wife, Aishah - whom he married when she was a child of about 9 years of age.

Hafsah and Aishah were, according to the traditions, often competitors for Muhammad's attention, and Hafsah told Aishah the entire sordid story. We can only imagine the anger of Aishah and the other wives of Muhammad. In retaliation, Muhammad boycotted the other wives, in respect to his sexual relations with them, and co-habitated exclusively with Mary. After one month, we are told by the traditions and the Qur'an that Almighty God intervened on Muhammad's behalf."

Tafsir: Sura 66
You do understand that Tafsir is from "Answeringislam and does not reflect the Islamic opinion.
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Old 08-09-2015, 04:47 PM
 
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I didn't think there was a collective 'Islam opinion'. And I'm not interested in the 'Islam opinion'...I am interested in what the Quran and hadiths say.

What is said is well sourced.

Abu Dawud 2150 (added by me for context)
Muslim 3433 (added by me for context)
Sura 4:24 (added by me for context)
Sura 66
Mizanu'l Haqq, page 330
Mishkat" II, pages 680-681
Rauzatu'r Safâ , Vol. II, page 188
Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 436

After reading this I would see why Muslims would want to hide it all.
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