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Old 07-30-2017, 02:42 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
It's a logical principle - something that does not necessarily follow. It's a non-sequitur.
Is "something that does not necessarily follow" a "logical" principle?

How is a "non-sequitur" - something that does not necessarily follow - a "logical" principle?
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Old 07-30-2017, 05:48 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,641,093 times
Reputation: 1860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Is "something that does not necessarily follow" a "logical" principle?

How is a "non-sequitur" - something that does not necessarily follow - a "logical" principle?
Don't hurt your head too much thinking about it!

A principle is a concept or value that is a guide for behavior or evaluation.

I was not trying to be particularly formal with this word principle.

Logic is the principle concept/value the was the guide to evaluate the idea and conclusion that if something is unique it is therefore from God. Non-sequitur is the error/fallacy committed in such reasoning. Anyone who thinks that something is from God because it is unique is making the same error.

So forget the word 'principle' and this diversion. Do you think that because something is unique it must therefore be of God? You obviously do since you think that the Quran is unique and therefore of God. And the test to produce 10 chapters like it and have people believe it to be the word of God, and if no one does, retaining it's uniqueness, allows you to conclude such nonsense. So not only is this a non-sequitur but your challenge was met by the book of Mormon. And since you never gave us any more than 1 or 2 criteria for this challenge the Book of Mormon successfully does so. So anyone who thinks that because x, y or z, is unique and therefore the word of god is committing that fallacy. And if anyone is unable, through logic, to see this then they are in my opinion dumb.
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Old 07-30-2017, 06:18 PM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,652,849 times
Reputation: 1543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
If I express that people in general are dumb if they violate logical principles and this is a violation of forum rules because they think I am calling a specif person or religion dumb as a result then this forum is worthless.

Too damn sensitive and not able to actually read what I am saying. It's Ok, I'll just bow out of this facade.
Bye.
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Old 07-30-2017, 06:52 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,641,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Bye.
Tootaloo!
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,970 posts, read 22,145,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
It probably is not "dumb" (or dumbness). Religion generates a level of irrationality. That can look dumb to a person not engulfed in that religious belief. The origins of Mormonism, and its tenets, can look dumb to a non Mormon. The origins would likely not be found logical to anyone but someone indoctrinated into the Mormon religion. The most relevant component of the foundation of Mormonism has Joseph Smith speaking to God through stones placed in the bottom of a hat. From that alleged conversation comes The Book of Mormon, read and accepted by millions of Mormons. Joseph Smith himself is a dubious character, having been arrested for various unsavory activities such as threatening individuals, and bank fraud. Most people find the foundation of Mormonism unworthy of belief. I know I would. Yet there are a lot of very bright Mormons. They are simply victims of a childhood indoctrination and would put up barriers against rational, objective analysis and discussion, just as Muslims do in many of these threads.
Oh, how silly. God doesn't communicate through a hat. He communicates through burning shrubbery.
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Old 07-31-2017, 02:57 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Is "something that does not necessarily follow" a "logical" principle?

How is a "non-sequitur" - something that does not necessarily follow - a "logical" principle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Don't hurt your head too much thinking about it!

A principle is a concept or value that is a guide for behavior or evaluation.

I was not trying to be particularly formal with this word principle.
You are trying to hurt your own head by explaining about "principle". You could have said,

"a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning" (Oxford Dictionary)

or

"a basic idea or rule that explains or controls how something happens or works". (Cambridge Dictionary)

But you didn't use the word "principle" on its own. You had used the word "logical" with it. You dropped a clanger by using the words "logical principle" instead of "logic principle".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Logic is the principle concept/value the was the guide to evaluate the idea and conclusion that if something is unique it is therefore from God. Non-sequitur is the error/fallacy committed in such reasoning. Anyone who thinks that something is from God because it is unique is making the same error.

So forget the word 'principle' and this diversion. Do you think that because something is unique it must therefore be of God? You obviously do since you think that the Quran is unique and therefore of God.
You are imagining too much about me. My thinking about the Qur'aan has already been explained in my posts that it is not invented by Muhammad. Did you understand or not?

As for my thinking that the Qur'aan is from God, it is not based on "because it is unique" but because (a) it is not invented by a man and (b) it is stated in more than one verse of the Qur'aan that it is from God, which I BELIEVE.

[39.1] The revelation of the Book is from God, the Mighty, the Wise.

[40.2] The revelation of the Book is from God, the Mighty, the Knowing.

[45.2] The revelation of the Book is from God, the Mighty, the Wise.

[46.2] The revelation of the Book is from God, the Mighty, the Wise.


I BELIEVE each of these verses. I will keep BELIEVING these verses and the whole Qur'aan until someone can prove that these verses, and the whole Qur'aan, are not from God.
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Old 07-31-2017, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Here
1,694 posts, read 1,496,229 times
Reputation: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Oh, how silly. God doesn't communicate through a hat. He communicates through burning shrubbery.
I have discovered that I am violating forum rules by bringing in references to non-Islam religion into this folder. It doesn't matter if I am using those references for comparison purposes. You are violating the same rule. I think we are both violating a rule by making some vaguely negative allegations against a religious belief. It doesn't matter that they are valid allegations. Good things only must be stated about religious beliefs in these website folders. I should point out that there have been threads in other folders (particularly Politics and Other Controversies) where negative statements can be said against Islam, or any religious belief. They are viewed by more people there too.
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,970 posts, read 22,145,963 times
Reputation: 10709
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I have discovered that I am violating forum rules by bringing in references to non-Islam religion into this folder. It doesn't matter if I am using those references for comparison purposes. You are violating the same rule.
I was joking, for crying out loud.
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Here
1,694 posts, read 1,496,229 times
Reputation: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I was joking, for crying out loud.
Motive or intent doesn't seem to matter. Sorry, I did not make the rules. I've just been subjected to them. I'm just passing on what I have been told.
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:22 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
I have discovered that I am violating forum rules by bringing in references to non-Islam religion into this folder. It doesn't matter if I am using those references for comparison purposes. You are violating the same rule. I think we are both violating a rule by making some vaguely negative allegations against a religious belief. It doesn't matter that they are valid allegations.
The problem is that people, who do not understand Islam, make "vaguely negative allegations" against Islam when they allege something against some Muslims. That is not valid allegation against Islam. Over a billion Muslims are not over a billion Islams.

In a discussion, if you allege something negative against ISLAM then you must back it up with verses of the Qur'aan as that's where ISLAM is described. If any Muslim fails to comply with ISLAM that is in the Qur'aan, his/her action is not ISLAM but an un-Islamic action.

The above is where you go wrong in talking about Islam and alleging about ISLAM. You allege against some Muslims but not against ISLAM. Your politicians over the years have twisted (radicalized) your minds so much that now any action of anyone who calls himself Muslim is regarded as "Islamic". An Islamic action is not every action done by a Muslim but the action that complies with the principles of Islam. You will find these principles described only in the Qur'aan.
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