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Your double speak is amazing . . . Westboro Baptist = freedom of speech . . . Catholics = radical terrorism . . . Muslims beheading and killing = ???? I am confused about the way that you arrive at your comparatives.
When, in any of my posts, have I condoned the actions of Muslim terrorists? I personally cannot see how you are still on this kick. All I've been saying this whole time is that Christians have really no leg to stand on when trying to call out the actions of radical Muslims. Or, even, to boil it down further, to say that moderate Islamists are not doing the job that moderate Christians are. It's the pot calling the kettle black. It's like Hitler telling Stalin not to commit mass murder.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
When we see demonstrations against Islamic terrorist killings even remotely similar to the ones about cartoons or teddy bears or books or . . . whatever offense they see against their Prophet . . . that would be a start. Nonsense . . the governments refuse to educate and promote condom use . . . and the primitive cultures simply are not amenable to such hygiene tactics.
Governments? When was the last time you heard of a stable African government? I've watched football games with fewer turnovers than most African governments.
Again, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, I do not condone the actions of extremist Muslims. Or, for that matter, extremist Christians. But, if you're honestly going to sit here and tell me that Christianity has a better moral pejorative over Islam than I'm telling you that you're only seeing what you want to see and that both of them are hideously disgusting in most practices.
When, in any of my posts, have I condoned the actions of Muslim terrorists? I personally cannot see how you are still on this kick. All I've been saying this whole time is that Christians have really no leg to stand on when trying to call out the actions of radical Muslims. Or, even, to boil it down further, to say that moderate Islamists are not doing the job that moderate Christians are. It's the pot calling the kettle black. It's like Hitler telling Stalin not to commit mass murder.
See . . . there you go again . . . (only this time Godwin is annoyed). I am ONLY responding to your INAPPROPRIATE and completely UNJUSTIFIED equal condemnation. There is nothing comparable in modern day Christianity to the global terrorism engaged in by current day (can hardly be called modern) Muslims, PERIOD. Your tenacious EQUATION of their CURRENT actions among the civilized nations of the world is outrageous . . . and must be completely driven by your disgust for ALL religious beliefs (which is the only thing that could possibly equate them in your eyes.)
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Again, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, I do not condone the actions of extremist Muslims. Or, for that matter, extremist Christians. But, if you're honestly going to sit here and tell me that Christianity has a better moral pejorative over Islam than I'm telling you that you're only seeing what you want to see and that both of them are hideously disgusting in most practices.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, I am not referring to your condoning anything. I object vociferously to your ridiculous comparisons and equation of their activities because you consider religious beliefs and practices disgusting, uneducated, and barbaric.
Right. And I'm still wondering why Christian organizations around the world are not condemning the Catholic Church for their methods of proselytizing about condom usage in AIDS ridden parts of Africa. I would say this is certainly a form of radicalism that needs to be accounted for in the Christian world. In other words, moderates are sitting on their hands while this is happening.
For the second time, it shows how out of touch the Church is when it comes to this subject. It’s not the same as the intolerance and prosecutions Christian suffer in the Islamic world.
No, the moderates aren’t sitting on their hands doing nothing. There are many events and charities hosted by Christian and other, Catholic and other dedicated to this specific cause. I have yet to see events i.e major concerts from any Islamic country to fight Islamic extremist.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
So, we can agree that what we might call 'moderate' Islam is actually a religion of peace?
You go ahead and call them what you wish. Moderate Muslims to me are individuals tolerant of other faiths, and value human life; basically, let people live their own lives despite their belief system.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
No, I'm not saying that it's only Christian Africans that are infected with AIDS. My point is that the Catholic Church sends missionaries to already diseased ridden parts of Africa and then condemns condom usage. It's kind of like walking into a hostile war zone and telling people to walk in the streets with no weapons or body armor.
The Church is partly to blame, but so does the lack of funding and education, which as I stated above, they are receiving from many generous charities.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I hate the Westboro Baptist Church as much as the next guy but I have to honestly admit that they are protected under the First Amendment. We may all hate what they have to say but if we are to shut them up than what precedent does this set for us to have freedom of speech at all? Perhaps the next step would be keeping all Christians from talking about their religion, or maybe, keeping me from speaking out about religion. Once the precedent is set, where do we stop? Again, I'm not defending the WBC, only their right to freedom of speech - no matter how awful it may be.
You’re contradicting yourself and you’re all over the place on this issue.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I was talking not so much to you as I was another poster in what you quoted me on. I'm fully aware that Christian organizations do a lot of good in the world but at the same time they're funding education and medicine, they're telling them to abstain from using condoms. It's such a weird irony, don't you think?
I don’t to see the parallels of this issue and the issue of mass extermination and intolerance of Christians around the Islamic world while the moderate Muslims are saying little to nothing.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Again, this seems to me to be more a product of the culture of the people more than a principle of Islam although the two can be hard to delineate from at times. As I mentioned before, and judging by your screen name, you seem that you may be able to account for this, but the Middle Eastern mentality, by and large, is much different than that of the West and their approach is and can be radically different than what we may see here.
The West saw Muslim demonstrations during the Dutch Cartoons, which included vandalized and threaten people’s lives. What did we see when the Dutch director got his head chopped off for making a movie about Islam? Nothing. What about the Britain bombing (just to name a few)? Nothing. The West has every right to be nervous of Islam/Muslims; we see how they react, and what they’re capable of, here and abroad.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
You mean like what happened to Muslims in America after 9/11?
No, I mean how the Christians in Iraq, Egypt, Turkey, and Lebanon (just to name a few) are being treated and targeted.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Alright. Northern Ireland comes to mind. So does Rwanda and the civil war between the Hutu's and the Tutsi's. Then there was Bosnia-Herzegovena with their war between Serbian Orthodoxy, Roman Catholocism, and Islam. These are all very modern-day events/wars in which other religions were rather involved in.
Radical Rights and Irish killed a total of what? Like 100 people? Not saying it’s right, but when you have terrorists repeatedly strapping bombs to young girls/boys/mentally challenged adults/adults and sending them into a crowded marketplace full of innocent people is no comparison. Further, these atrocities are being conducted by 1 demographic globally, and against anyone (particularly against the West).
Didn’t they catch the person responsible for the vile acts in Bosnia? I wonder what’s the holdup in putting a stop to the ethnic cleansing in Darfur. Hmmmm
Killing in the name of any god is just plain wrong and never justifiable. And on that note, you can't be any more judgmental about muslims than anyone can be about christians.
Isn’t it not true that “today’s†radical Islam is targeting non-Muslims in the Islamic world, and even the West? The same truth that can be said about the crusaders, the difference is, this is happening today, not in history.
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Originally Posted by cleatis
I won't deny that what they are doing is wrong - it is. But you posted this as though to say that islam is a greater cancer on the planet than christianity - and that simply isn't so.
That’s your interpretation. I merely asked a question “where are the so-called moderate Muslims†when their fellow countrymen are being attacked for being non-Muslims. I have yet to receive a legitimate answer, only excuses and history lessons.
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Originally Posted by cleatis
Yes, it may have been decades ago that christians have done their things, but will you be so willing to overlook these actions as trivialy as you do now in a few decades? just because it was a long tome ago doesn't make it any less wrong or trivial.
But I guess that's how it is with religion and its followers - when they do it it's bad, when I do it isn't justifiable because it was a long time ago, or the cause was misunderstood, or because there was bias or some other excuse.
You suggest one should dwell on history? When is it a good time to move forward? How does millennia sound? Still too soon? If we use your logic, I guess you wont criticize a Jewish person for bombed/kills Germans.
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Originally Posted by cleatis
And in the end and a few hundred years from now people like you and I are going to be looking at the history of all these religions and realizing them for being the greatest cause of barbarism on the whole planet and all of this crap that has come from religion will show it to be just the way we see the greek/roman gods - obsolete.
Okay already, we get it, you’re an atheist/you don’t believe. Start a new thread about it.
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Originally Posted by cleatis
And what now? Just because Christians haven't pulled something like this for a few years doesn't make you any less liable. Each time you condemn a religion on the basis of one being better than the other you further the wall of division between humanity. And if you think that doesn't contribute to situations like these - then there is nothing more I can say as you are totally lost.
I believe, you are lost…where did I say my religion is better than yours, or anybody for that matter? So basically, no matter, how much good, how much time passes, you are judging by decades of history. Aren’t you the forward thinker!
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Originally Posted by cleatis
So you're right, I'm not thinking about today and the here and now - I'm thinking about tomorrow.
You’re so fixated on history; I’m surprised you can even think about a few minutes ahead, let alone tomorrow.
See . . . there you go again . . . (only this time Godwin is annoyed). I am ONLY responding to your INAPPROPRIATE and completely UNJUSTIFIED equal condemnation. There is nothing comparable in modern day Christianity to the global terrorism engaged in by current day (can hardly be called modern) Muslims, PERIOD. Your tenacious EQUATION of their CURRENT actions among the civilized nations of the world is outrageous . . . and must be completely driven by your disgust for ALL religious beliefs (which is the only thing that could possibly equate them in your eyes.)I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, I am not referring to your condoning anything. I object vociferously to your ridiculous comparisons and equation of their activities because you consider religious beliefs and practices disgusting, uneducated, and barbaric.
No, I'm pointing out the fact that both religions are equally heinous, obscene, ridiculous, petty and stand up to no scrutiny when held a candle to as far as moral superiority goes. Both Islam and Christianity are responsible for countless death throughout the world both in history and the present day. Ignoring that may make you feel warm and fuzzy inside but it's no different than moderate Muslims failing to speak out against terrorism. Christianity is just as digusting and is responsible for just as many disgusting acts as any act of terrorism past or present. The two really have no right to argue who holds moral captivity over the truth when they've both killed as many people as they have.
Just because Christianity has a less outspoken and vociferous voice in the world today does not mean that it has many times proved itself to be anything less than a repugnant, horrible belief system responsible not only for mass murder but also for subjugating governments in societies into pathetically inexcusable religious demagoguery and thus I find the initial analysis of a Christian speaking out against Muslim terrorists to be filled with hole-laden hypocrisy.
Radical Rights and Irish killed a total of what? Like 100 people? Not saying it’s right, but when you have terrorists repeatedly strapping bombs to young girls/boys/mentally challenged adults/adults and sending them into a crowded marketplace full of innocent people is no comparison. Further, these atrocities are being conducted by 1 demographic globally, and against anyone (particularly against the West).
Didn’t they catch the person responsible for the vile acts in Bosnia? I wonder what’s the holdup in putting a stop to the ethnic cleansing in Darfur. Hmmmm
You said, and I quote:
Let me know if today’s Christians or any religion for that matter start killing their fellow countrymen globally because of their beliefs, maybe then we can talk more.
I gave you three examples. One of Christians killing others and two of mass genocidal occurences - one with Christianity involved, as well as Islam and Serbian Orthodoxy, and the other (probably one of the worst on this planet) in two separate religions. That's what you asked for. I gave it to you and you've ignored it with "just a hundred or so"?!?!?! Typical.
No, I'm pointing out the fact that both religions are equally heinous, obscene, ridiculous, petty and stand up to no scrutiny when held a candle to as far as moral superiority goes. Both Islam and Christianity are responsible for countless death throughout the world both in history and the present day. Ignoring that may make you feel warm and fuzzy inside but it's no different than moderate Muslims failing to speak out against terrorism. Christianity is just as digusting and is responsible for just as many disgusting acts as any act of terrorism past or present. The two really have no right to argue who holds moral captivity over the truth when they've both killed as many people as they have.
We get it . . you find Christianity and religion disgusting. We can only hope you have never done anything heinous, disgusting, or vile in YOUR PAST . . . to be forever chained to and defined by those acts would be a terrible burden. NO CHRISTIAN preacher, priest, pope . . whatever widely followed and accepted currently advocates violence and killing in support of Christianity, period . . . you cannot saddle today's religion with acts that it does NOT advocate and in fact actively condemns. Try doing the same with Islam.
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Just because Christianity has a less outspoken and vociferous voice in the world today does not mean that it has many times proved itself to be anything less than a repugnant, horrible belief system responsible not only for mass murder but also for subjugating governments in societies into pathetically inexcusable religious demagoguery and thus I find the initial analysis of a Christian speaking out against Muslim terrorists to be filled with hole-laden hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is NOT transferable across individuals and generations, Troop . . . who TODAY is guilty of this hypocrisy in the name of Christianity?
We get it . . you find Christianity and religion disgusting. We can only hope you have never done anything heinous, disgusting, or vile in YOUR PAST . . . to be forever chained to and defined by those acts would be a terrible burden. NO CHRISTIAN preacher, priest, pope . . whatever widely followed and accepted currently advocates violence and killing in support of Christianity, period . . . you cannot saddle today's religion with acts that it does NOT advocate and in fact actively condemns.
Sure. I have done things I'm not proud of but I haven't done them for some unfalsifiable reason. I have not done them out of acts in which I believe there is some sort of divine reason for me to do so. I haven't claimed that some sort of spiritual power compels me to do them. I take responsibility (personally) for my actions and I don't grant accord to some amalgamated being that forces me to do these things. That is what I find disgusting about religion. It's an enabler. It enables people to dish off their moral vicissitudes and allow them to shovel their personal agendas onto some sort of cosmic entity. And just about every single religion is/has done something of the sort to justify their actions. Thus, while the world will still have problems even without religion, I think that the world would be a much better place without it.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Try doing the same with Islam.Hypocrisy is NOT transferable across individuals and generations, Troop . . . who TODAY is guilty of this hypocrisy in the name of Christianity?
I already told you. The Catholic Church; I cited other examples in which a hodgepodge of religious organizations such as Roman Catholocism, Islam, and Eastern Orthodoxy eradicated millions of cross-religious people within Bosnia/Serbia. Let's also not forget, once again, the Catholic Church who did very little, if anything during the days of Hitler. These are, by all accounts, modern events in the scheme of history. There are still people alive who suffered mightily at the hands of Hitler and thus I think it's apt to say that Christianity has got a lot of blood on its' hands that doesn't wash away so easily.
Thus, while the world will still have problems even without religion, I think that the world would be a much better place without it.
That is really your issue, Troop . . . it has nothing to do with the comparability of the heinous acts themselves . . . because they are NOT COMPARABLE. You despise all religions equally regardless of their avowed goals and purpose. You don't evaluate their acts individually because they are equally guilty of believing in God.
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I already told you. The Catholic Church; I cited other examples in which a hodgepodge of religious organizations such as Roman Catholocism, Islam, and Eastern Orthodoxy eradicated millions of cross-religious people within Bosnia/Serbia.
I suppose it is irrelevant that these conflicts were political with long histories of animosity among the ethnic groups . . . since they are all religious . . . they are all equally disgusting.
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Let's also not forget, once again, the Catholic Church who did very little, if anything during the days of Hitler. These are, by all accounts, modern events in the scheme of history. There are still people alive who suffered mightily at the hands of Hitler and thus I think it's apt to say that Christianity has got a lot of blood on its' hands that doesn't wash away so easily.
Godwin is truly getting annoyed, Troop . . . are you seriously blaming the Holocaust and Hitler's lunacy on religion? Boy . . . you really ascribe to that guilt by association fallacy . . . don't you? ALL religions are equally guilty of all atrocities committed by any religions . . . all lunatic fascist dictators who are remotely associated with any religion indict the religion in their lunacies. You really need to think through your rationale, Troop . . . it is seriously distorted by your hatred and disgust for religion.
That is really your issue, Troop . . . it has nothing to do with the comparability of the heinous acts themselves . . . because they are NOT COMPARABLE. You despise all religions equally regardless of their avowed goals and purpose. You don't evaluate their acts individually because they are equally guilty of believing in God.
They ARE comparable. How is killing people silently different from killing people explosively? It's still killing people! I detest religion because it provides the excuse, the pathway, the methodology to take other political, sociological, or greed-based agendas and project it onto an imaginary being.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I suppose it is irrelevant that these conflicts were political with long histories of animosity among the ethnic groups . . . since they are all religious . . . they are all equally disgusting. Godwin is truly getting annoyed, Troop . . . are you seriously blaming the Holocaust and Hitler's lunacy on religion?
No. It is not irrelevant. Why can't it just be a political animosity or dispute? Why does irrational logic supporting the idea of some sort of ego-depraved entity requiring and supporting these acts have to enter the picture? It shouldn't and that's why no one wins in a religiously ideological battle.
Furthermore, no, I am not blaming the Holocaust and Hitler's lunacy on religion. Don't take what I said out of context. What I said, or rather what I meant, was that the Catholic Church never really spoke out against the atrocities and they never exerted their influence to really condemn the actions. That, in my mind, is what we call in the legal world being an "Accessory" to a crime. Hitler had his own agenda but the Catholic Church had ample opportunity to speak out against it - and they didn't. Which, by the way, falls handily in line with the argument you and the OP are purpoting in that moderate Islams should be speaking out just as the Catholic Church SHOULD have spoken out against Hitler.
And who the hell is Godwin? And why do I care if I make him upset?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Boy . . . you really ascribe to that guilt by association fallacy . . . don't you? ALL religions are equally duilty oof all atrocities commited by any religions . . . all lunatic fascist dictators who are remotely associated with any religion indict the religion in their lunacies. You really need to think through your rationale, Troop . . . it is seriously distorted by your hatred and disgust for religion.
Perhaps you should think through your rationality. Religion has been a plague on humankind since the dawning of our existence. To say otherwise is to transcend the boundaries of cognitive dissonance to a whole new level. I still stand by my affirmation - Religion is horrible. Time to choke up, get rid of it, and face the music that we should be held liable for our actions and not project it onto some celestial monster.
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