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Old 03-12-2019, 05:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
Again, your disagreement with their beliefs, which you have grossly mischaracterized, does not change the English language.

Do you honestly believe that every Jew who does belong to an ultra-orthodox sect has completely rejected God and Judaism?
huh?????

leave out the phrase "ultra orthodox" altogether and leave out the word "sect" altogether. Those are disparaging and pejorative. And offensive and irrelevant. Those are words that are used to denigrate Jews and Judaism. A Jew is a Jew. The problem with labels is they are used in a way that is divisive and causes strife, instead of unifying us. We are one people. Literally. Jews are one people.

the question asked is simply, when someone uses the phrase "religious Jew" what they mean by "religious."
Anyone?

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-12-2019 at 05:32 PM..
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,721 posts, read 1,390,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
huh?????

leave out the phrase "ultra orthodox" altogether and leave out the word "sect" altogether. Those are disparaging and pejorative. And offensive and irrelevant. Those are words that are used to denigrate Jews and Judaism. A Jew is a Jew. The problem with labels is they are used in a way that is divisive and causes strife, instead of unifying us. We are one people. Literally. Jews are one people.

the question asked is simply, when someone uses the phrase "religious Jew" what they mean by "religious."
Anyone?
So, after calling Reform and Conservative Jews incapable of being religious, that they reject God and Torah, that they "gut the heart and soul" out of it, you believe it is my use of ultra-orthodox sect that is offensive, disparaging, and causing divisiveness and strife within the Jewish people?
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:51 PM
 
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I think the use of the word Religious, with regards to Jews, means they follow the Torah - all of it, as explained by chazal and practiced by frum Yidden. R and C Jews who are halachiclly Jewish are certainly 100% Jewish. But clearly they fall short in Torah observance, and so to call them religious is an insult to them, ie, if theyíre not following Torah based Jewish religion, then what religion are they following? Itís much kinder to frei Yidden not to call them religious. <cue angry snarky reply>
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:08 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,392 posts, read 498,294 times
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I believe that their are different types of Jews, regardless of the labels we have for supposed denominations. In any grouping, some follow the law(s) as they understand them -- if I start with a belief that Torah is inviolable in the form of the Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, M"B etc, then I abide by those dictates. If I believe (through teaching and investigation) that the Torah is a divine construct but given to man to modify then my adherence to certain laws will be no less adherence but the particular laws will be different. If I understand Judaism and its laws to be a completely societal construct, then my observance will be driven by my understanding and that belief - no less "strict" but complying with a very different presentation of those laws.

Others, in any group, do not believe. They either do or don't do by rote or by whim, or in reaction to local peer pressure.


We use a loaded term like "religious" or "observant" but forget that we are using it from within a context of belief in what the goal should be, forgetting that others, with different overall senses of the religion might be following their understanding of the religion very strictly, no less so than we do.

Then, what we do is deny that their version of what the religion IS has any validity. But that judgment comes just as much through our lens so we justify ourselves by saying no one else can be justified by us. It is a vicious and useless circle. More later. I'm headed out (of my house, if not my mind).
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:45 PM
 
400 posts, read 124,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Strike 2. The term Hasidic does not apply to American Torah Observant Jews.
It does to some. Ever been to Boro Park? Williamsburg? Crown Heights? Kiryas Yoel?
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:57 PM
 
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Then look at behaviors and look at what results from those behaviors.

Look at choices and look at the consequences of those choices.

Assimilation results in destroying Jews.
Lack of Jewish education leads to the destruction of Judaism.
Intermarriage results in the destruction of Judaism.

Those are simple stark examples of how a Jew's choices have a direct impact on destroying Jews and Judaism.

That is not a "judgment" or an "interpretation" or a "different sense of the religion" or an "understanding." It is a fact.

"Validity?" "Version?" There IS no validity whatsoever in a choice or behavior or "version" that results in destroying Jews and the destruction of Judaism.

We have free will. Even to reject G-d and Torah chas v'sholom. But we are responsible for our choices and the results and consequences of those choices.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-12-2019 at 07:30 PM..
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:36 PM
 
Location: NJ
1,392 posts, read 498,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Then look at behaviors and look at what results from those behaviors.

Look at choices and look at the consequences of those choices.

Assimilation results in destroying Jews.
Lack of Jewish education leads to the destruction of Judaism.
Intermarriage results in the destruction of Judaism.

Those are simple stark examples of how a Jew's choices have a direct impact on destroying Jews and Judaism.

That is not a "judgment" or an "interpretation" or a "different sense of the religion" or an "understanding." It is a fact.

"Validity?" "Version?" There IS no validity whatsoever in a choice or behavior or "version" that results in destroying Jews and the destruction of Judaism.

We have free will. Even to reject G-d and Torah chas v'sholom. But we are responsible for our choices and the results and consequences of those choices.
And everything you said is driven by the presupposition that your understanding of Judaism is right and that the future of Judaism rests in the continuation of what you understand the religion to be.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:38 PM
 
3,964 posts, read 3,347,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben Shunamit View Post
It does to some. Ever been to Boro Park? Williamsburg? Crown Heights? Kiryas Yoel?
Iíve spent time in every one of those communities (ok, KY was just a drive-by to say Iíd been there), and Iíve never met one American frum Yid who calls himself Hareidi. Add to that list Lakewood, Muncie and Flatbush. Still never heard it. Next youíre going to say there are Dati Lumi in the US?
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:32 PM
 
13,093 posts, read 13,700,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends View Post
And everything you said is driven by the presupposition that your understanding of Judaism is right and that the future of Judaism rests in the continuation of what you understand the religion to be.
The future and continuance of Judaism is and always has been Torah, Hashem, halachah, and Jewish education for our children.

Not the dismantling and discarding and rejection of those.

That has not changed. Emes (truth) does not change. G-d does not change. Torah is the life blood of every Jew because Torah is what connects us to Hashem. Walking away from Torah and choosing assimilation and intermarriage has always had horrific disastrous decimating results on Jews and Judaism.

It's not what I say. It's what our sages say for the last 3320 some years. And they have far more credibility and kedushah than those who reject Torah, halachah, and Jewish education.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-12-2019 at 09:21 PM..
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:48 PM
 
13,093 posts, read 13,700,372 times
Reputation: 9157
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
So, after calling Reform and Conservative Jews incapable of being religious, that they reject God and Torah, that they "gut the heart and soul" out of it, you believe it is my use of ultra-orthodox sect that is offensive, disparaging, and causing divisiveness and strife within the Jewish people?
Don't put your words in my mouth. I mentioned behaviors. And i have always said a Jew is a Jew and i intentionally avoid the labels you continue to use.
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