Why do so many Angelinos think that a bush is a trash can? (Los Angeles: fit in, tenant)

[The Illusive Man]

Originally Posted by LuvSouthOC

I'm trying to figure out why if someone makes a valid observation and criticizes immigrants that that person should be encouraged to move be elsewhere.

It does make sense. If someone is unhappy, they should go where they are happy. Life is too short to be in an area you don't like or will have a negative attitude towards.

[DKM]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

It means there aren't enough public trash cans around. I used to see that in Seattle, until the city put trash cans around the commercial streets, especially, and at bus stops and some parks. But people still use residential shrubbery as trash receptacles, when there are none handy.

When I moved here recently I noticed that its hard to find a public trash can like I'm used to. This at least is part of the problem. Strangely grocery stores have the same problem with shopping carts. No places set aside to put them in the parking lot so carts are all over the place. Weird

[True Freedom]

I hear y'all about public trash cans, but people carried whatever it was for a while when it was full (like a drink cup), so why can't they carry it when it's empty, until they find a proper receptacle?

Some people are just lazy and have no respect for others. Putting trash cans everywhere isn't going to help them.

The second thing (which is pointed out in this thread) is the EXTRA effort people take to dispose of their trash by jamming in a bush, or stuffing in a fire hydrant, or wedging into the bark of a palm tree. This takes more effort than simply throwing on the ground. I understand there will be lazy people, but the bush-jammers.. I just don't get.

[Count David]

Originally Posted by LuvSouthOC

I'm trying to figure out why if someone makes a valid observation and criticizes immigrants that that person should be encouraged to move be elsewhere.

It's not a valid observation because as I pointed out earlier, native-born Americans are guilty of it too.

As The Illusive Man pointed out, if you don't like where you live, you can change it by moving. Or you could do your best to set your own example. Or you could just deal with it as being one of the aspects of living in a CITY. This poster is well known for blaming all of his internal/external problems on the types of people who live in LA: something that could be "supposedly" solved by moving to good 'ol Oregon/etc. (but yet, he won't do it).

Should I go start a thread on my local forum asking why my darned White American neighbor blows his leaves into my yard? "Why don't White Americans understand that their leaves aren't mine?"

Ridiculous enough yet?

[LuvSouthOC]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

It's not a valid observation because as I pointed out earlier, native-born Americans are guilty of it too.

As The Illusive Man pointed out, if you don't like where you live, you can change it by moving. Or you could do your best to set your own example. Or you could just deal with it as being one of the aspects of living in a CITY. This poster is well known for blaming all of his internal/external problems on the types of people who live in LA: something that could be "supposedly" solved by moving to good 'ol Oregon/etc. (but yet, he won't do it).

Should I go start a thread on my local forum asking why my darned White American neighbor blows his leaves into my yard? "Why don't White Americans understand that their leaves aren't mine?"

Ridiculous enough yet?

To say that something is not a valid point because Americans do it too is to engage in tu quoque, that is, "like you, like me". It is a logical fallacy. Sure, some native-born Americans do do what you described, but it is also the case that poor immigrants do it even more commonly. Why?

• The poor immigrants generally have fewer ties to the community than do the natives;
• The poor immigrants tend to be tenants, who, as a group, have fewer if any concerns about maintaining property values;
• The poor immigrants tend to be younger than the native population and thus tend to consume perishable food or drinks on the street due to cramped living conditions and the fact that they walk more often than the natives;
• The poor immigrants come from very different cultural backgrounds than most natives and those immigrants hail from places where public littering is not scorned as highly as it by most belonging to the native population.

I do respect the point about the poster and perhaps there is a tendency to be extreme. I understand that and respect your point of view. However, that does not make his viewpoint invalid in this case .

[Count David]

Originally Posted by LuvSouthOC

To say that something is not a valid point because Americans do it too is to engage in tu quoque, that is, "like you, like me". It is a logical fallacy. Sure, some native-born Americans do do what you described, but it is also the case that poor immigrants do it even more commonly. Why?

• The poor immigrants generally have fewer ties to the community than do the natives;
• The poor immigrants tend to be tenants, who, as a group, have fewer if any concerns about maintaining property values;
• The poor immigrants tend to be younger than the native population and thus tend to consume perishable food or drinks on the street due to cramped living conditions and the fact that they walk more often than the natives;
• The poor immigrants come from very different cultural backgrounds than most natives and those immigrants hail from places where public littering is not scorned as highly as it by most belonging to the native population.

I do respect the point about the poster and perhaps there is a tendency to be extreme. I understand that and respect your point of view. However, that does not make his viewpoint invalid in this case .

It's just an excuse to hate/dislike/abhor a segment of people. More people to him I suppose.

[Chimérique]

Originally Posted by LuvSouthOC

To say that something is not a valid point because Americans do it too is to engage in tu quoque, that is, "like you, like me". It is a logical fallacy. Sure, some native-born Americans do do what you described, but it is also the case that poor immigrants do it even more commonly. Why?

• The poor immigrants generally have fewer ties to the community than do the natives;
• The poor immigrants tend to be tenants, who, as a group, have fewer if any concerns about maintaining property values;
• The poor immigrants tend to be younger than the native population and thus tend to consume perishable food or drinks on the street due to cramped living conditions and the fact that they walk more often than the natives;
• The poor immigrants come from very different cultural backgrounds than most natives and those immigrants hail from places where public littering is not scorned as highly as it by most belonging to the native population.

I do respect the point about the poster and perhaps there is a tendency to be extreme. I understand that and respect your point of view. However, that does not make his viewpoint invalid in this case .

A big part of the problem is a cultural thing. Many disrespectful litter bugs today do not feel shame in littering. They think it is their right to do whatever they want. As that population grows the younger natives who were taught not to litter begin to think it is ok to litter as well.

Seeing litter and trash upsets me a lot and depresses me. So, personally, to make myself feel better I actually pickup peoples litter regularly as I go about my day, nothing too big but if the trash is easy to get to, I just pick it up and carry it until I see a trash can. On an average day, i pick-up probably 10 "pieces" of trash (cups, paper, bags, etc)

We have to think of a long term solution to the problem, teaching respect and dignity and shame.

As the "disenfranchised" population grows, so will the trash, there is a direct correlation.

The people who know better and who do not litter but ignore the problem and make excuses for the litter bugs will continue to rise as well. You can see it in their posts in this thread -- Denial, hypocrisy, fear of being called a racist, or hate monger.

Why don't I litter? Why do I always feel shame whenever I have? Because I was taught as a child to feel shame when and If I did it. Also I was taught not to be lazy, and I was educated on the benefits of not littering, and I was punished when I did litter as a kid and I became fearful that I would get a $1,000 fine if I did litter, or that someone would see me littering(shame). None of those ideas are taught or practiced by large sections of our new society. And people will make excuses and deny that things are different than 30 years ago.

[RMESMH]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

Or you could just deal with it as being one of the aspects of living in a CITY. This poster is well known for blaming all of his internal/external problems on the types of people who live in LA: something that could be "supposedly" solved by moving to good 'ol Oregon/etc. (but yet, he won't do it).

He won't do it because he is a creature of habit, and likely, with how long he's likely owned his properties (thinking benefits from Prop. 13), wouldn't be able to set up as beneficial a situation in another state. I absolutely disagree with his attitude, but I do agree with a few of the things he complains about. I know his posts irritate a number of people, but they usually make me laugh.

[RMESMH]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

It's just an excuse to hate/dislike/abhor a segment of people. More people to him I suppose.

Re the bolded....perhaps...but the only way you could know for certain that that is his motivation would be if you knew him personally.

[RMESMH]

Originally Posted by bigdumbgod

A perception that "I pay my taxes, so somebody's getting paid to clean up after me." A false sense of empowerment among those who have little power. Or real self-respect.

Bingo.

It's a 'what can I get away with' mentality, rather than having a standard to hold yourself to.