A debate: How to grow Maine's economy? (China, Mexico: for sale, home)

[OutDoorNut]

Originally Posted by melinuxfool

It's abundantly clear to me that the idea the state government has had to focus on a tourism economy is failing miserably for the local people.

Working three months out of the year just does not pay the bills during the other nine. I'm fortunate enough to have a job that pays a decent wage, but I realize many others are not.

What can we do as a state to better our economic situation?

I think we need a radical change in direction. I would like to see Augusta care more about Maine people than summer visitors.

Our closest competition, New Hampshire, has no sales or income taxes. The average income in NH is higher than Maine's. I think we would do well to model New Hampshire's economic policies here in Maine.

Could be the cheapest and easiset way to attract businesses, would be to have reliable, clear communication with the rest of America and the world.

That means high-speed internet and high-quality telephone service.

I'm a small-time entrepreneur, one of many such today who rely on the internet.

Being small-time entrepreneur means I'm unconventional (were I conventional, I'd work for someone else).

And it takes an unconventional American to want to move themselves and their business to Maine.

Because most conventional Americans dreams of the sunbelt, instead.

Now the other good thing about businesses like mine, is we do the least harm to our surrounding environments: low power consumption, low pollution, no smoking factories, no industrial waste, no windmills spoiling the view, etc.

So there can be a lot of businesses like mine in Maine, without degrading the environment that makes Maine so great to be in.

And much of the money we make comes from outside the state.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by retiredtinbender

If only it were as simple as tax breaks and TIFs for the idle filthy rich. (I agree though that the folks making the big bucks are looked on as something to hate.) Businesses are moving out of the country for a reason. IMHO that one (and only one) reason is the enormous amount of federal regulation. OSHA, DEP, EPA, Workmans' Comp, etc. Add onto that (sorry if it offends, but...) unions with more pay less hours, strike threats, and all that. When Sylvania the plant from Bangor to Monteray it all lo9oked good on paper as far as saving money. The guy that came up with the plan actually retired extremely well. Getting away from all the Federal and union stuff (at the very least) would actually save them money. Add to that the low cost of employing down below the border was a huge incentive. Six months later Sylvania high command was angry because of the rolling brown outs in Mexico. That's not good for someone doing a lot of welding. Then a year later they were upset that they could have headed to China and saved more money than moving to Mexico. And that included everything including building the road to the area to build the plant.

Remember back when Perot said pass NAFTA and you'll hear a loud sucking sound? Even as he spoke his teams were making plans to move a plant of his south to evade regulation. When Calif. was having trouble with brownouts they went to Mexico to ask to build a large power station. There regs were too stringent and their legislature wouldn't back down. BTW, Mexico told them all to perform a physically impossible act.

There are a lot more problems than taxes for bringing industry or small businesses into Maine. The problems from the MeDEP for just replacing or putting up a wharf to bring in your daily catch is enough to stop most people. Reign in the State and Fed as far as regulations would go a long way.

I agree.

[Zarathu]

NAFTA is a nightmare, and many of us knew it at the time. And the Federal and state regs are unbelieveable.

I understand. My wife started a Quaker School about 16 years ago. You would not believe the stupid costly regs she has to follow when she was under the State Dept of Education. But when the school shifted down a notch to early childhood ed, it came under the "protection" of the Welfare Dept, not the Education dept. The new regs some of which are so stupid and so costly that it made the Ed Dept reg's look like heaven; it's questitonable whether her school will survive, and it because of things like requiring 10,000 bucks worth of rubber playground materials for a small school with only 45 kids. Heck, they have a mortgage on their building and have to pay all utilities and employees, and benefits etc, and they get dumped with many things like that.



These things have to change, but who's going to do it? State reps won't intervene.

Z

[AustinB]

Originally Posted by retiredtinbender

If only it were as simple as tax breaks and TIFs for the idle filthy rich. (I agree though that the folks making the big bucks are looked on as something to hate.) Businesses are moving out of the country for a reason. IMHO that one (and only one) reason is the enormous amount of federal regulation. OSHA, DEP, EPA, Workmans' Comp, etc. Add onto that (sorry if it offends, but...) unions with more pay less hours, strike threats, and all that. When Sylvania the plant from Bangor to Monteray it all lo9oked good on paper as far as saving money. The guy that came up with the plan actually retired extremely well. Getting away from all the Federal and union stuff (at the very least) would actually save them money. Add to that the low cost of employing down below the border was a huge incentive. Six months later Sylvania high command was angry because of the rolling brown outs in Mexico. That's not good for someone doing a lot of welding. Then a year later they were upset that they could have headed to China and saved more money than moving to Mexico. And that included everything including building the road to the area to build the plant.

Remember back when Perot said pass NAFTA and you'll hear a loud sucking sound? Even as he spoke his teams were making plans to move a plant of his south to evade regulation. When Calif. was having trouble with brownouts they went to Mexico to ask to build a large power station. There regs were too stringent and their legislature wouldn't back down. BTW, Mexico told them all to perform a physically impossible act.

There are a lot more problems than taxes for bringing industry or small businesses into Maine. The problems from the MeDEP for just replacing or putting up a wharf to bring in your daily catch is enough to stop most people. Reign in the State and Fed as far as regulations would go a long way.

My swamp in back of the house, is now zoned resource protection, by the dep. Part of my lawn is now a forested wetland.

[Zarathu]

Originally Posted by AustinB

My swamp in back of the house, is now zoned resource protection, by the dep. Part of my lawn is now a forested wetland.

Is that good or bad? Were you planning on putting in a high-rise back there?

[AustinB]

Originally Posted by Zarathu

Is that good or bad? Were you planning on putting in a high-rise back there?

I like to be able to cut my firewood, without having to get a permit.

[retiredtinbender]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

I agree.

I typed all that so you could write 2 words??? C'mon!! You know how long that took to proofread???

[retiredtinbender]

Originally Posted by AustinB

I like to be able to cut my firewood, without having to get a permit.

Ain't state power a wonderfull thing? Gotta protect those shrimp and turtles. Just put on another sweater if you get cold. Someone turn you in?

[BacktoNE]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

While tourism is a big industry in Maine. I am not sure how much of Maine is really effected by out-of-state tourism. I do not live in a tourism 'hotspot'. About half of the properties in my township are accessed seasonally, the owners tend to be folks who live near Portland [rather than out-of-staters].

I recently attended a conference held by an economist who shared many interesting statistics with us. Among them:
1. Maine's population is old;

2. Maine's 'Demographic Winter' is upon us [*];

3. Maine's economy was growing steadily right up to the last quarter of 2001, since then it peaked and has seen a steady decline;

4. Slightly over 50% of all Mainer's personal income is from the public sector, less than half is from the private sector.

[*] Demographic Winter is when the birth rate drops to below self-sustainable numbers. For any culture to sustain itself it must have a birth rate of 2.6 The birth rate in the USA is 2.1, birth rates in all Western European nations range from 1.1 to 2.1 As a culture we are facing our own extinction because we refuse to breed. In the case of Maine, due to our aging population, females of breeding age are a very small minority. Maine has already reached the point beyond which there is no recovery. As a nation there is still a chance of recovery [though it would require a stoic breeding effort by most people of breeding age].

IMHO; before our economy could 'recover' we would require people of career age. We do not have enough of them at this stage.

May Divine Providence guide us.

OMGosh, sprayed water all over the monitor on that one. I suddenly feel like I should be moo-ing or something. As one of those females who flat our refused to breed, I point out all those women here in the midwest who have 5, 6 or more kids. More than enough to compensate for those of us who prefer to remain child-free.

Forest, I'm not picking on you. I just found this really amusing for some reason. I actually agree with pretty much everything the economist spoke of, but how to fix it? I have no idea.

I just hope DH can find a job to get us back there and we'll worry about the rest later.

[tcrackly]

Originally Posted by OutDoorNut

Could be the cheapest and easiset way to attract businesses, would be to have reliable, clear communication with the rest of America and the world.

That means high-speed internet and high-quality telephone service.

I'm a small-time entrepreneur, one of many such today who rely on the internet.

Being small-time entrepreneur means I'm unconventional (were I conventional, I'd work for someone else).

And it takes an unconventional American to want to move themselves and their business to Maine.

Because most conventional Americans dreams of the sunbelt, instead.

I disagree about the NH annexing Maine part, eeeww!. But I do think that one of the best gifts maine can give to itself is to invest in more infrastructure; east-west highway, expanded internet and electric power delivery.

[Now the other good thing about businesses like mine, is we do the least harm to our surrounding environments: low power consumption, low pollution, no smoking factories, no industrial waste, no windmills spoiling the view, etc.

So there can be a lot of businesses like mine in Maine, without degrading the environment that makes Maine so great to be in.

And much of the money we make comes from outside the state.[/quote]


And I don't believe that trying to lure big business from elsewhere is our solution. Huge profit interests with out of state bases typically rape our resources, use our labor, take our money , then split when the bottom line doesn't suit them. How many times have we been left with a giant employment and physical building site vacuum when some large corporation would rather hire in India and not have to pay for heat?
Being unconventional has spawned many lucrative businesses from Maine's pool of enterprising individualists. These smaller businesses should be seeing the tax breaks, more so than Walmart and it's ilk.
Smaller businesses have a lighter impact on the environment and , especially when they're home-grown, more of a commitment to protecting our natural resources. We need to be thinking "outside-of-the-box" instead of "the big box".