Montana Clicks

[jenzebel]

Originally Posted by jimj

.....

First, yeah, retirement pays sooo well. I'm sure most wouldn't be working at Wal Mart and such if they could afford to live on retirement money not to mention they WORKED for that retirement. As for the rich, I really haven't seen a whole lot of them working. Shopping,eating and partying sure but work? I don't think so.
I would hope that person that was volunteering was doing so out of the goodness of her heart, not to put you out of a job. Why not put the blame where it belongs? With the company! .

I don't disagree with you that most of the jobs here pay squat and definately have not kept up with costs and there are people that come here thinking they can make it, find out they can't and either move or suck it up and do what they have to do in order to stay here. I guess it all depends on how bad you want to be here. Is either one of those things bad?

Well, first of all, I never said retirement was profitable. In fact, I know many retired native Montanans that had to go back to work when all of the outsiders moved in and drove up the real estate prices and therefore the taxes. They could have enjoyed their retirement otherwise but since their taxes went up so much, they had no choice.

And yes, I do blame the company--but I also blame the person that volunteered because she knew they interviewed for a paying position and were in the process of offering the job to a candidate. In a COMMUNITY, you wouldn't do that--take a job away from someone that needs to work by volunteering to take the job for no pay...but then I guess you wouldn't know anything about being part of a community. And that is what is missing from most of the transplants--no sense of COMMUNITY.

As far as people coming here, then figuring it out--am I glad they leave. I just wish they would be smarter and not come here in the first place because I don't want to support their a**es with my tax money while they figure it out when they go bust.

[rickers]

I think it's pathetic how so many folks whine about low wages here ! Wake up, nobody ever does well working at crappy jobs for low pay. The opportunities are everywhere for a person who has worked hard in school and is willing to work hard at their job, but you need to start a business from scratch and reap the rewards later. I came from California with freaking nothing and worked for temp services doing the hardest and crappiest work for a few years before we got on our feet. We are now getting our food products manufacturing licence, (to expand our product line), and are buying a few pieces of machinery to speed production. Business is booming for us and we can hardly keep up.
Forget punching the clock and and being poor. Grab your dream and go for it !

[nebulous1]

I am not from Montana but was reading this thread with interest.
Perhaps people there don't realize it, but...there are very few states left that are undeveloped. Montana is one of the last frontiers, so to speak, so I can understand the coldness about others moving in. Perhaps the people who move there from CA want to get away from CA and that is why they left. Just speculation on my part.
You would do well to protect your state, before it becomes like Arizona or any of the other newest trendy places to go.

[nebulous1]

Originally Posted by cep66

I've been reading this forum trying to get a sense of things. Posted a thread. Just kind of seeing what folks have to say. It's all very interesting, to say the least.

I have lived all over (lived in 38 states, been to all the rest but 2). My dad was a journeyman wireman before he retired, so we traveled for his work. Mostly lived in small towns. Because of the nature of work, we lived in a lot of small mountain towns, and a lot of towns near reservations and so forth. Add to it that our family has been farmers and horse traders (egads!, I know how all the crazies feel about that!) since about 1801, and you get a rough idea of the background. Mine is the first generation of the family that is starting to change vocation (money is the big factor in this, as we all love horses like it's nobodies business, but we love being able to eat and the confidence of knowing we have a roof over our heads and SOME kind of savings account for emergencies, better).

I guess all that is to say, from my perspective, a lot of the complaints I see about people and so on is nothing new. Small towns everywhere are often insular. I've only lived in a couple where the people of the town were downright welcoming from day one. It takes time - and a lot of it. People need to know you're moving there and plan to be a part of the community, and do things to benefit the community, not just live in your own bubble on your own private island, so to speak. In the town where our family farm is, it's the same thing as it is with CA folks in Montana, except they call 'em "City Folks". Every time I go back for our family reunion I get about an hour rundown on the latest city nutbags that moved in and did something stupid. And, to be frank, they've done some pretty stupid stuff, really (like move downwind from a chicken house THEY built....lol...that's just good entertainment for the locals, really). In that particular town, everyone waves. Everyone knows who everyone is. And they don't like city folks. BUT, that said, they wouldn't leave one stranded, or let one starve, either. They'd help 'em if it came down to it. AND, my uncle reminds me regularly, I'm now a city person. I've been working in them for a few years, so I now fit that category. GREAT! :-) I only get by there because of my family and the fact that I know everyone there.

Here's the paradox, and I know Montanans can appreciate it. You encourage your kids to get a good education. You kill yourself to send them to school to get it. They get the education, but then, more times than not, can't work anywhere in their home state. So they move and get a job to pursue this family dream. Then they become the city people. Nasty little cycle.... It's exactly the same in the south, which is where most of my family is at (some have migrated up this way for jobs, though, in the last 15 years or so, including me).

My situation. I've got a student loan, because my folks couldn't afford for me to go to college. So I bit the bullet and took out loans. I have absolutely zero debt, other than that loan. I can't afford to buy a house or condo where I live anywhere within commuting distance (Seattle). So I'm trying to find somewhere where I can. I prefer those smaller mountain towns and desert towns, really, so that's where I start looking. I had a job interview with a place in Missoula the other day. I thought I was going to fall over when they briefly mentioned the pay range. 10k below the national average, and not even remotely close to an affordable pay if you ever want to own anything within commuting distance of town. Even renting on any salary in the range they mentioned would leave you with, at most, $60 left after just basic bills & rent. When I say basic, I mean basic. Food. Apartment (nothing fancy, either, just a one bedroom roof over the head situation). Utilities. Gas for the car. Car insurance (which, as an aside, I found out is higher than my insurance for living in downtown Seattle!). My initial reaction was - how the hell do employers get away with it? I think they must take advantage of the people who are from there and have family ties and obligations and can't really leave, so they suck it up and take what they can and find a way to scrape by and make ends meet. The idea of that really kind of pisses ME off, and I'm not from there. They point blank said, after mentioning the salary range, that it isn't a livable salary given the housing market. So they know the market is out of control, and they know the wages don't remotely compare. They're a private employer, and have chosen to do nothing to mitigate that. Wow. Then, in the same breath, they said they're having a really tough time finding qualified people to fill jobs, and that's why they got in touch with me so quickly and were hoping to move the interview process along. All I could think was "Well, no SH*T, Sherlock!". People can't LIVE on that. You don't become qualified for jobs overnight, and usually not for free. Even if it IS for free, you don't bust your butt for years on end becoming good at what you do to then be told you're only going to earn entry level wages or less. Nuts.

I think this whole economy, not just Montana, is going to hell in a handbasket. LOL. How's that for facts and stats and such? ha-ha. Can't live where the jobs are, and can't live where the jobs aren't (especially if you're still single trying to do it). Damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of thing.

Blah, blah, blah. Anyway......

Went through something similar, although I don't come from Montana. Right now, it is very hard to find a good paying job in a small town. You are right, it is the whole economy.
But the housing industry, the headhunters, etc. have created "hot places to live" and you see these continually cycled through Forbes, Money Mag, and CNN. They tell you the best places and where the jobs are, and those aren't always very accurate. I went to one such "desirable place to live", and I might have just well as been in Mexico.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by jenzebel

And yes, I do blame the company--but I also blame the person that volunteered because she knew they interviewed for a paying position and were in the process of offering the job to a candidate. In a COMMUNITY, you wouldn't do that--take a job away from someone that needs to work by volunteering to take the job for no pay...but then I guess you wouldn't know anything about being part of a community. And that is what is missing from most of the transplants--no sense of COMMUNITY.

I had hoped it would be noticed that I said "I would hope that person that was volunteering was doing so out of the goodness of her heart, not to put you out of a job. Why not put the blame where it belongs? With the company!"
I didn't say it was right if she KNEW she was shafting you out of a job since that wouldn't be right at all. You don't take away someones ability to provide for themselves.
I know all about being part of a community and do try but the gossipy people and those who refuse to parent their kids or teach them to be good to others or even have manners have worn me down...... We thought we left that in the city.

[cep66]

I know exactly what you're talking about. Those lists are ridiculous. Having lived in some of the towns they talk about, all I could do is just chuckle to myself at their descriptions. I've taken some of those quizzes for kicks, and some of the results are so completely random. They talk about cities and towns like commodities. Which is amusing. All that branding crap.

A lower wage in a smaller city/town is to be expected. But there are limits to how low. In my case, I'm willing to take a 10k cut in pay, because housing is less, even if the cost of living isn't. This is true of most smaller towns/cities. It would even itself out, and that would be just fine. But a 20k cut in pay sends the whole thing down the crapper. Which is the scenario in MT. Currently, I can't afford a house where I live, but I can afford to save. In MT, not only would I not be able to afford a house, but I'd also have zero ability to save. So if there's no willingness by employers to meet in the middle, then it just can't happen. There are plenty of beautiful mountain towns with nice people in them who like to ride horses in this country. I happen to really like Montana, but not enough to shoot myself in both feet. Which, apparently, makes Montanans everywhere quite happy. One less person moving there. Happy to do my part, I guess...

Originally Posted by nebulous1

Went through something similar, although I don't come from Montana. Right now, it is very hard to find a good paying job in a small town. You are right, it is the whole economy.
But the housing industry, the headhunters, etc. have created "hot places to live" and you see these continually cycled through Forbes, Money Mag, and CNN. They tell you the best places and where the jobs are, and those aren't always very accurate. I went to one such "desirable place to live", and I might have just well as been in Mexico.

[RobertaFromMT]

Do you need any ranch hand help on your ranch? I was born in Kalispell and married a Wyoming cowboy and we are in Nebraska right now, finishing a harvest job. It was fun to travel but now we are ready to come back if we can set up employment in advance. We have 2 boys, age 9 and 16, and 2 girls, one and 4. Aaron has 7 years ranching exper, and can build houses also. I always liked visitors to Montana, myself, but I was raised elsewhere and only got to visit each year back to relatives in Montana on vacations and family reunions each year.

[RobertaFromMT]

Originally Posted by cep66

I know exactly what you're talking about. Those lists are ridiculous. Having lived in some of the towns they talk about, all I could do is just chuckle to myself at their descriptions. I've taken some of those quizzes for kicks, and some of the results are so completely random. They talk about cities and towns like commodities. Which is amusing. All that branding crap.

A lower wage in a smaller city/town is to be expected. But there are limits to how low. In my case, I'm willing to take a 10k cut in pay, because housing is less, even if the cost of living isn't. This is true of most smaller towns/cities. It would even itself out, and that would be just fine. But a 20k cut in pay sends the whole thing down the crapper. Which is the scenario in MT. Currently, I can't afford a house where I live, but I can afford to save. In MT, not only would I not be able to afford a house, but I'd also have zero ability to save. So if there's no willingness by employers to meet in the middle, then it just can't happen. There are plenty of beautiful mountain towns with nice people in them who like to ride horses in this country. I happen to really like Montana, but not enough to shoot myself in both feet. Which, apparently, makes Montanans everywhere quite happy. One less person moving there. Happy to do my part, I guess...

You are pretty right. I went to work and live in Montana as an adult - just as all my cousins who grew up there were - exiting, stage left! I ended up leaving, too, for income reasons and the public schools were full of rough kids, too.

[magoomafoo]

Alot of the animosity comes from out-of-staters coming in and buying up houses and land that Montanans are trying to obtain. Montana has a lower annual salary average than Cali, New York ect... So when out-of-staters do move in, they usually do have the money to waltz in and buy some native montanans dream. Another thing is that out-of-staters move in and immediatly try to adopt the "montana cowboy-ranch" lifestyle. Sort of p____s alot of good ol montana boys (gals too) off. Native montanans are not going to conform to california or new york ways, you guys have to learn to conform to montanans

[AQHA]

Its like the guy who builds next to the milk-barn then complains about the smell of the cows.
I've never been one to blame California people, the truth of the matter is the California people were screwed over worse than any state I can think of back on the 70's and 80's. EVERYONE was moving there and doing the same thing to them that we are crying about now. Some song, different verse.