This Californian moving to Montana (a few comments) (Missoula: houses, to buy)
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Perhaps you should reread the information. The document you referenced, "Great Falls Growth Policy" clearly states, "A Growth Policy is not a “master plan” - it is not legislation, and it is not a zoning or subdivision ordinance" (2005). So it has no "teeth". It is more of a vision statement than anything. Further in the document you find, "It (Growth Policy) does not propose specific locations for land uses and facilities or identify detailed regulations"(2005).
So what, if anything now regulates the area within Cascade County outside of Great Falls city limits (I realize the city has zoning) since "the Cascade County Board of Commissioners passed a resolution to dissolve the Great Falls City-County Planning Board and associated jurisdictional area, effective July 1, 2005"(Growth Policy 2005)?
Great Falls handles growth well? Right, that's why I've heard so many negative comments about the two motels built several years ago along River Drive south of Applebee's. "Growth" that has spoiled that part of the riverfront in many folks' opinions. At one time you could drive along and see the park and the river, but no more, not with the motels and Mackenzie River Pizza there. When I first heard about the motels being built in that location, I wondered why the developers didn't try to buy the land on the other side of the road and build them there. Well for one thing, the developers bought the land for at least one, maybe both motels, from the city (I recall reading that in the Tribune) and I can't remember what they paid but it seemed like an artificially low price. Now when you use the park, it feels like you are in the motels' backyards. Do you call that good planning?
Oh.... I see you want the county...... why didn't you say so in the first place...
And the area(s) to which you are refering, that contains the motels, had been zoned commercial for years..... long before even the park development ever existed.
You said..."it is SO obvious that you have never REALLY had to endure HARSH, fast paced......" pretty presumupuous of you, I dare say you or someone like you would have folded up and crawled under a rock if they ever would of had to go thru some of the episodes I've dealt with in life.....
Heart Wrote:
If you want peace you should have been here before the invasion.
Yea, my grandparents had dogs to, If you haven't notices that the populations of dogs and dog owners has exploded lately, you probably live in a different Missoula, I wasn't aware there were 2 in Montana though.
Presumpuous of you once again....I actually ride a bike and walk more than I drive around missoula. And when I walk or bike I would never be so rude as to make a line of dozen of so cars and trucks come to a complete stop and sit there idling fumes while I lolly across the street, maybe you feel you are special enough to impose that on other people but I'm not, just because they are in a car they are still people, I don't see myself any more special just because I'm walking. Besides it's a lot safer and easier just to stand on the corner NOT in the street for another 15 seconds until the traffic goes by...even on the busyest streets I rarely wait more than few seconds or just walk to cross at the light...second I never ride my bike on busy streets, wanna know why ? Did you hear ? Yet another biker got killed the other day.
Heart wrote:
Darn, Looks like I'll have to be more negative next time.
First off I don't go to those bakeries.
Well if you think this is heaven, it's because you came from such a dump, and why was it a dump. If you've read some of my post you probably heard me say that I'm not particuarly fond of the idea of people leaving behind the places they lived in and where they got whatever they could got there and than flee leaving the mess behind for others to deal with while they float off to find another heaven and turn it into hell, starting the whole process all over again. You see how that works ?
I guess I can just say enjoy your little bit of heaven while you can because I can guarentte if won't last long.....mine didn't, It got invaded with dogs, rude petestrians, foo-foo bakeries, big box stores urban sprawl, to name a few, and oh yes presumpuous trans-plants too.
Also don't take my post so seriously, it's just my opinion and it's ok to laugh at ourselves (us Missoulians), you probably haven't lived here long enough to know most people thing this is a very silly place indeed and making fun of it is kind of a tradition or way of life around here, so laugh a little....
I believe *everyone* in life has experienced some heartache or difficulty. What I'm referring to is the difficulties and things you list as these huge problems with missoula which do seem trivial to *me*. I was saying, there are far more things in life to get riled up over than the little stuff. I'm saying, I used to live in an area where it was common for someone to get shot right up the street from me, drive by shootings, children killed in their front yards, shooting sprees on freeways, rapes and murders....drugs....etc. Violence is everywhere of course! I'm merely comparing harsh living conditions that I have endured in comparison to here.
I've been in some pretty horrible conditions, coming from alaska all the way to the midwest. I don't mean to minimize your personal difficulties.
As for bikers, it's only common sense to stay out of busy traffic. It's this way anywhere we live - *I* know many drivers don't care about bikers or pedestrians. They are too busy checking themselves in the mirrors of their SUV's ha- ha. If anyone understands how *some* SUV drivers can be it's me. Some of them have this - "Get outta my way or die!" attitude.
Actually, I didn't come from a "dump". I came from a neighborhood that was considered a "good area". But unfortunately in the bay area, crime happens everywhere, and no one is immune to that. Not even the girl who was gunned down near the Macy's in Missoula last night. It is a sad reality.
Let's see. I never left a "mess" behind. I'm not from California. I'm from Alaska. I'm also from a small beautiful city in the Midwest. I only moved to Ca for a few years to be with and marry my husband. California was never my home. I got involved, and voted, but I never planned to put roots down there. I was unhappy there for some time.
And, I believe I mentioned, I already have family established in the Missoula area!
Who in their right mind wants to stay in a place that makes their lives miserable? Not me. That is why I left Ca.
Again, let me reiterate.....I never moved to Montana because of the mountains, or because I want to change things. Nope! If I want to move somewhere for the mountains I can always go back to Alaska....or Missouri in the Ozarks. ::shrug:: I came up here to be with family.
You may find that I'm not one of these "trendy, hip" types who want to change Montana! Matter of fact, I was shocked to find out that there were starbucks here. Do I like it? Nope. I tend to enjoy giving my money to the small business owners - who treat customers fairly. I'm not happy about these "hip trendy" bakeries that charge out the wazoo for a nasty tasting cardboard -like muffin! lol I simply won't go there. I seen enough of that in berkeley!
I am not happy that my in-laws are battling sub-divisions from going up right up behind their property. At least 600 homes. If this happens, the beauty and peace of this area will be completely destroyed. I find the urban sprawl just as disgusting and frustrating.
I'm completely for hunters and fisherman's rights. I find it sad when I read about long time generational locals who want to go fish to their regular spot and suddenly cannot.
I could go on and on but I won't. I was unsettled by how changed Missoula was after not having seen it in years. At the same time, I can't make this place out as being horrible to live in.
I believe *everyone* in life has experienced some heartache or difficulty. What I'm referring to is the difficulties and things you list as these huge problems with missoula which do seem trivial to *me*. I was saying, there are far more things in life to get riled up over than the little stuff. I'm saying, I used to live in an area where it was common for someone to get shot right up the street from me, drive by shootings, children killed in their front yards, shooting sprees on freeways, rapes and murders....drugs....etc. Violence is everywhere of course! I'm merely comparing harsh living conditions that I have endured in comparison to here.
Well not *everyone" have experience heatache,etc - only the ones that did did, some people just dish out heartache and missery, I've meet a few.
And you're right all the issues I brought up and complained about are trival, very trival indeed, I never said they were serious issues, well not at least until someone gets killed on their bike, which by the way is a pretty regular occurance around here, so if I was you I wouldn't be riding in those bike lanes on busy streets or getting out into the traffic to make a turn, as much as the town encourages such stupid behavior, alot of people have gotten killed doing that, right here in missoula, and that isn't trial when it happens to you or someone you know.
Glad to hear you didn't come up here "to see the mountains", lord knows we don't need anymore of them. I actually stated in some of my early posts my position on people moving here, that I didn't mind people who move here in what I'll say is a natural course of events, ie. to be with family, job transfer, etc....it's other "I wanna live in the mountains" crowd I have problem with, in which case we basic suffer the problems and consequences of their self-indulgence, those being problems being, traffic, pollution, crime, sprawl, extemely inflate realestate price that our own kids can't affored to buy in their own town, etc, etc, etc, with the problems they casue.
Hey, I think you are in for a dissapointment about the crime thing, we get murders, rapes and the like all the time around here, all the time, granted we can't compete with the big inner cities for driveby shootings, but there's lots of nasty stuff going on around here, so don't go getting a false sense of well being when your out and about. And what was that about someone shot down by Macy's ?
Hope you folks here don't mind a little input from across the country. I'm in upstate NY. I have looked at the Idaho and MT posts occasionally as I was there occasionally in the 80'-early 90's for the Army and a vacation (89' Centennial). Thought the 2 states and their inhabitants were real nice. And no, I haven't any intentions of "escaping" to MT. It seems like the area has taken a beating from many of the new comers (and maybe some locals exploiting the rapid growth). I was born in upstate NY..and here I'll stay. I mentioned in the one posting I ever did on the Idaho forum how a barkeep almost refused me a beer...until I assured him I wasen't fom Ca. I also seem to recall doing some trail riding w/my wife in SW MT. The outfitter's place did this in the offseason from hunting. Even in 89' , out-of-staters were buying up and posting formerly open land. A sign I guess..of worse things to come.
You know, here in upstate NY, we've had negative growth for the last 10 years. Maybe that's not all such a terible thing. The same places I've hunted and fished for the last 20 years...well..thery're still there. Yeah, we get some "pilgrims" from NYC, Long Island and N.J....but they have been small in number. My county(was in the paper yesterday) has experienced a net 130+ person growth in the since 2000.
Maybe the misconceptions folks have about upstate NY....it's all just a big suburb of NYC(200 miles away!), etc..maybe isin't such a bad thing. The Catskills, Finger Lakes, and the Adirondacks aren't suburbs either, just in case it needed any more clarifying.
Well, I wish the best for you natives...and for those "homesteaders" movin' there ...stop trying to recreate the area you left.
My 2..or 3 cents worth.
You've hit the nail on the head with that statement. That sums up the problem in one short sentence. I think most Montanans don't automatically dismiss someone just because they are from California. However, people do resent those that try to recreate what they've left, especially after they've complained so much about where they came from. You want to say to them, "Why do you want to change things, I thought you liked it here the way it was when you first found it; I thought that's why you moved here." But it seems it has become "politically incorrect" to say this in Montana.
Then there are the ones that move here and from their constant barrage of negativity about Montana, you wonder why they came in the first place. For example, I recently had a conversation with a new arrival from California and he kept saying things like--we have better restaurants, culture, shopping, bars, schools, roads, you name it in California and oh, we'd never do it that or allow that in California, that is crude, uncivilized, etc. etc. I held my tongue but I wanted to say, if California is so d*** great, why don't you just move back there. I think what really grates on many people here is hearing that kind of "attitude" over and over for years--I know I have--from newcomers.
I've been to upstate NY and there are some cities but it is quite rural and pretty, especially the Adirondacks. The one thing I think that has lead to the demographic changes in many of the rural areas is the increasing opportunities for telecommuting. I would imagine that upstate NY always has had NYC folks there for vacations and summer homes, but now some of them can stay year-round if they can work out of their homes. And if the infrastructure of a community is accustomed to mostly seasonal rather than year-round residents, it could cause some problems. I know some Montana communities just weren't prepared for the tide of new arrivals when it first started, granted it may have been a small influx compared to some areas of the country but looking at it proportionately, for Montana it was huge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tioga
...stop trying to recreate the area you left....
jenzebel wrote:
You've hit the nail on the head with that statement. That sums up the problem in one short sentence. I think most Montanans don't automatically dismiss someone just because they are from California. However, people do resent those that try to recreate what they've left, especially after they've complained so much about where they came from. You want to say to them, "Why do you want to change things, I thought you liked it here the way it was when you first found it; I thought that's why you moved here." But it seems it has become "politically incorrect" to say this in Montana.
Well the problem is that Montana has been turned into what they left behind, take a look at Reserve St on the west side of Missoula, sure looks like your typical big city sprawl to me, pick up your yuppie-latte at Starbucks before you head off to Wally World to pick up lots of cheap usless chinese junk for your over-priced McMansion on a hill, or drive on into Missoula downtown, and shop with all the beautiful people and disscuss the virtues of gender tolerance over a $10 glass of foo-foo fruit juice.
Funny thing is that all that change did happened and I've never meet a single person yet that moved here that said anything other than "I don't want to change anything".........hum that must be one of those great mysteries of life, or maybe this is where that old saying comes into play..."what people say and what people do are two different things" or "don't listen to what they say - watch what they do" or "actions speak louder than words", by the way have you noticed to that nobody ever uses those old sayings anymore.
OK all you good Montanans get a good rest in today because tomorrow it's back out to the construction site, and do your duty making montana a better place to live, let's get them new malls in, new housing developments in, dig up that field, put those new sewer lines in, just remember you're making a better and more beautiful place for us all the live (well not the local - they can afford it anymore). And remember you're not really changing anything, think of it more as in terms of rearranging things, yea that's it, your just rearraning things - like taking the wood out of the forest and putting it into a Mc Log-ansion. You are the real heros ! destroying Montana one nail at a time, one building at a time, one developemnt at a time. Yup you guys are the real heros.
Last edited by JoeJoeMan; 05-13-2007 at 12:39 PM..
Well the problem is that Montana has been turned into what they left behind, take a look at Reserve St on the west side of Missoula, sure looks like your typical big city sprawl to me...
Missoula sure has changed dramatically. I remember when Reserve St marked the west end of town and the land west of Reserve was mostly agricultural not commercial development. And I am not that old
I think a contributing factor to some of this mess is that most people are not willing to live simply. They have affluenza (not my term, but a wonderfully descriptive term from a PBS special on the U.S. consumer culture) They feel they must have a house several times the size they need on mega acres they don't utilize (look at all the farm/ranch land now gone to development), the newest, most expensive vehicles, all the latest technological doo-dads, etc, things they really don't need but they demand them. It is an emptiness in their lives they are trying to fill; a void they are choosing to fill with materialism.
Then some of those people move here thinking they are trying to connect spiritually with the land (because they have that empty feeling) yet they bring their affluenza with them and aren't willing to reduce their "footprint" on the land. They make unrealistic demands for services that can't be met without raising everyones' taxes through the roof, and still they never connect with the spirit of the land. They just don't "get it".
Missoula sure has changed dramatically. I remember when Reserve St marked the west end of town and the land west of Reserve was mostly agricultural not commercial development. And I am not that old
Well I'm glad to hear your are not that old. Yea the place change faster than anyone could have imagined.
I just read that the popluation of Missoula hasn't changed that much over recent years, but that's just the city, it's like a cup that was already full and couldn't hold much more, but the immediate and surrounding area is a completely different story as is evident looking at it.
I've never really liked growth, sure we gotta' live on this earth. But I just see it as mindless growth for the sake of a buck, not for the betterment of the society, imagine that, and most people call me 'conservative', what's in a label anyway. Then one day I had an ipifany, and I realize what good is any of that growth doing ? It makes more traffic and dangerous roads, literally killing us, more polution, congestion, all the needed infustructure demands, increased taxes, inflated home prices, more crime, and on and on and on, so what's the point of it all ? We create more jobs but (not very good ones) then move more people in to fill them, what's the point of that, and so on and so on.
Some mindless local would-be politician once told me it improves the 'quality of life'....."oh yea" I responded, "tell me how".......dah no answer.
Here's the question I like to pose to people, "are you happier now that we have Reserve St, the Box stores, and the endless sprawl?"..........well are you happier ?................of course not, all your doing is making a bigger mess to deal with. Whether growth is a natural phenomena of the human condition or not is debatable, personally I think it isn't, reguardless......STOP ENCOURAGING IT, it has become godlike - growth - our very being and livelyhoods now depends on it, Missoula would cave in on itself if the building and growth ever stopped, what a sad state of affairs it has turned into, that we have to continuely eat up the beauty of our own surroundings just to exist, and in the end all we get is a worse place to live with more problems.
Like I've always said - those growth plans are just a bunch of crap, all they are are just more mindless work for local beaurcrates and feel-good-get-involved citizens. I'm sure the developers love those things, it's like putting the community on mind-numbing drugs while they run out and tear up whatever they want.
GROWTH worship it, sing its praise, it's about the only thing that's left of our sad economy, when it goes so does the developers, construction workers, realestate people and the like and then the supporting industries............so get down on your knees and give thanks and prayer and of course sacrifice, sacrifice everything you once loved about Montana, GROWTH - it's your new god now, go worship your new golden idol, and in the end, see what it gets you.
Seems just like yesterday that reserve was gravel and barely made it to 3rd.
And I remember that there were those, even in those days, that thought Southgate Mall would be a better replacement for the sawmill that once stood there, and how the north end of town was uprooted for the interstate... (what a mess that was)
Yup
Those were the days alright.
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