Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Tahiti you sound like a tax lover. Yes we have to pay for services, BUT we don't want to pay for unnecessary and unneeded services. No application for you into the tea party
Realizing you have to pay for things doesn't make me a tax lover, nor does it mean I don't understand there is unnecessary waste. And paying for "unnecessary and unneeded" services is in the eye of the beholder, is it not? If some people on this board had their way, there'd be no public schooling, libraries, state employees, COPS, firefighters. I feel these are "necessary".
But you are right about one thing - you wouldn't catch my dead corpse at a Tea Party.
thanks tahiti. I think there's obviously much that can be debated when it comes to government spending. whether you and I think that we (taxpayers) should have our government (city, county, state, country) pay for certain services will always be a matter of opinions with some very good arguments on all sides of the issues (and sometimes some very horrible ones).
what i do have a problem with is when people just whine about paying taxes. especially when people are content with what they have because the generations before them helped pave the way for them to get there, and now they may or may not need some of those things that got them where they are, and they no longer want to pay for it. the classic example is older citizens that think they shouldn't have to pay school taxes. but there are many other examples i've come across (i.e., the professionals in NJ who have had pretty good careers, and maybe sprawled a bit farther from the city, but think that they should be exempt from helping pay for the public transit system that helped them make their careers in the first place!).
bottom line is, many of us chose to live near NYC. whether we work in NYC or not, we enjoy the property value appreciation, and the services that help make that happen need to be paid for.
everyone wants the pothole fixed, and fixed quickly, but then they complain that the city has workers that sit around and don't do much for some of the time. everyone wants to be in a safe town, but no one wants to pay for more cops. everyone wants the 300 best schools in the country to be NJs various public schools, but no one wants their property taxes to go up.
jersey man is right, we don't want to be for uneccessary and unneeded services. problem is - who gets to decide what's necessary and what's needed? those that have everything they need? those that don't? who?
Yeah. In case you missed it -- Millburn is a more affluent town than West Orange. I'm not up to checking the census numbers now, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 68th wealth or income or whatever percentile is comparable to the 92nd in Millburn.
In other words, what evidence do you have that these scores are a result of a better school system as opposed to a bunch of students that happen to be smarter on average ?
Do you have anything more detailed than the average score ?
Most of the numbers that you have reflect the performance of the weaker students in that district. But WO encompasses a fairly broad slice of the socioeconomic spectrum, so those lower scores come from a very different demographic to your typical Millburn student.
If you were to look at the performance of the top 10% of West Orange students, you might get a very different picture.
This might be the greatest post I have ever read on this board. It's funny, there is a new sticky at the top about the always popular "Which Town should I move to". If you read this board daily, and are an out of towner you would be convinced the only towns worth living in this state are in Essex (Westfield, Cranford, Millburn Livingston Glen Rock Summit etc). Those are the USAL popular towns mentioned. Its usually followed by a "those are the best schools, every other school in every other town is crappy, your kid will be destined to be a ditch digger for life" type of responses.
People fail to look at the big picture, and as the guy I quoted said, the socioeconomic issues at hand. IN a more affluent town, the parents generally care more, the environment at home is stable, thus more kids succeed. You get into a town with more diversity, the working class spectrum is bigger, and some kids just arent as motivated, parents dont care etc. Does that mean town X's school system sucks because the kids (parents) that don't care are dragging down the stats of the kids that do care????
I went to a HS that's ranked close to the bottom of that 2008 NJ Monthly ranking. I went on to a prestigious private 4 year college, became an engineer and am doing quite well. I don't believe I am the exception either, its real simple, if you're involved in your kids life, care about his/her friends, their school work, provide a stable environment at home, they'll be fine wherever they go.
The snobbery on this board is comical at times, "Oh that town's school is ranked 78th according to some magazine. Its not in the top 5 like millburn, livingston, etc. That means its crappy and your kid is destined to be a busboy at Chile's".
tony - mostly agree with what you're saying - but my experience in PA schools is that, a school reaches a point where if there's enough kids whose parents don't care, it severely limits the ability to learn. so even if your parents do care, it becomes a fight - and the kid is exposed to peers that don't force him or her to compete at a higher level. they can still succeed, but in some environments it becomes difficult.
thing is, for most of the towns we're discussing, enough people care to overcome the people that don't.
just read a letter from WO mayor about my 3rd quarter tax bill, and it has a blurb in it about WOHS - 95% going to college - including Harvard, Duke, BC, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, Swarthmore, Cornell, Michigan, UNC, Carnegie-Mellon, G-town, and Rutgers.
i'd be willing to bet there's more great schools on that list as well. the 2008 stat for Millburn, the top ranked school in the state (according to nj monthly), was 97%.
so now, honestly - how bad can WO school system be?
just read a letter from WO mayor about my 3rd quarter tax bill, and it has a blurb in it about WOHS - 95% going to college - including Harvard, Duke, BC, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, Swarthmore, Cornell, Michigan, UNC, Carnegie-Mellon, G-town, and Rutgers.
i'd be willing to bet there's more great schools on that list as well. the 2008 stat for Millburn, the top ranked school in the state (according to nj monthly), was 97%.
so now, honestly - how bad can WO school system be?
Thanks Brady, that was the same letter I got a few weeks ago and was referring to in one of my previous posts on this topic. So we have 95% of students going to college, and included in those colleges are top Ivy League universities, yet there are still people on this forum trying to make the argument that the schools are bad. If they think WO is bad, I can't imagine what they think of the inner-city schools.
wait, the NJ Monthly rankings are based on the things you just spoke about, but they're a joke?
Yet you regard SAT scores highly when it's a known fact that some students simply don't do well on that test, even if they excel in college? I mean, we all know there needs to be standardized testing, but really. And as I said, the 4 year college entry rates do not necessarily tell the entire picture.
and when comparing taxes, what if one city provides more or better services to their residents? doesn't that get counted in the tax comparison? it's not all going to the school. the bottom line is, the school isn't crappy. it may not be the best, but if it's in the top third of the state in a rankings list, that has to mean something.
maybe the school should be better, but i thought it was good to know last night that i read the student/teacher ratio at the high school was 11.5. that's pretty good no?
So where are those stats that are going to show how good the HS is you promised? Show me facts not conjecture.
Thanks Brady, that was the same letter I got a few weeks ago and was referring to in one of my previous posts on this topic. So we have 95% of students going to college, and included in those colleges are top Ivy League universities, yet there are still people on this forum trying to make the argument that the schools are bad. If they think WO is bad, I can't imagine what they think of the inner-city schools.
From the NJ dept of ed:
2009 West Orange HS Post-Graduation Plans
Four-year College/University 65.9%
Two-year College 22.0%
Try to research facts....not quote from a newsletter.
2009 West Orange HS Post-Graduation Plans
Four-year College/University 65.9%
Two-year College 22.0%
Try to research facts....not quote from a newsletter.
Ok, I'll accept that those 2009 numbers are correct. So 66+22 = 88% of students going to college. Now let's assume the mayor's 2010 95% number is also correct. So for argument's sake let's take an average of the two to compensate for margin of error in either statistic. So the average of 95 and 88 is 91.5%. That's bad? And with this being my final post on this topic I think I've made my point clear.
Ugh, the school discussion again. People are so obsessed with statistics. Look, if you (as parents) place a high value on education and you and your children associate with others who feel the same way, your child will be fine.
I don't think you need to spend a fortune on a house in Millburn to find this out. I wouldn't want my child to go to a poorly performing school district, but I wouldn't want my child growing up to be a snob who thinks a trip to the Short Hills Mall is a vast cultural experience, either. And before anyone invokes the false Bible that is NJ Monthly Magazine, remember - they don't hire statisticians, they hire editors and ad salesmen. There's a reason why only certain towns in North Jersey (not coincidentally, where they have heavy subscription and advertiser bases) seem to have the "best" schools, doctors, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in their rankings.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. Yes we have to pay for services, BUT we don't want to pay for unnecessary and unneeded services. No application for you into the tea party
