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Erie County is paying 2.6% of property value (on average) toward taxes on residential properties. I can't find the data for commercial properties, but it's likely higher. You've got a situation where the tax base has evaporated and some of the largest employers in the region are the State of New York, the US Government, the City of Buffalo and the county itself.
Let's just assume for a minute that your conspiracy theory, downstate/Albany plot to legislate policy that screws upstate wasn't true at all. I'm not even saying Albany doesn't bend over backwards for NYC - it does, but let's just say that doesn't happen whatsoever for the time being.
From the corporate perspective (ie: anything that will bring jobs in great numbers) Buffalo/Erie County is a major bust because it will cost roughly 3x more in property taxes each year than other similar cities. Rust belt tax rates are through the roof, 2.6% might not seem like that much more than 0.8% on paper, but when we're talking millions of dollars and multiple decade commitment, it certainly adds up. So before Albany ever has a chance to poison the rest of the state with pro-downstate policy, Buffalo - and all of New York's old industrial centers - have absolutely no shot of attracting big ticket employers until they come up with some way to trim the fat at the local level.
Show me one thing that says bringing a major corporation to Buffalo, NY would cost more because of some specific "NYC bias" than the city's tab itself would. It's a nice idea for people upstate to believe that cutting the state in half would magically fix everything, but it's a fairy tale.
I don't meant to diss on Buffalo either, but it's the poster child of upstate/WNY failure. It's a great city, I've been there about 15 times and enjoyed the hell out of it, but it's got major problems and a shaky future ahead of it.
Heres a nice deal that someone else already proposed.
Since this entire debate is based around Buffalo's inferiority complex towards state brother NYC, why not just split the state in the middle, instead of strictly "Upstate NY." There are parts of "Upstate NY" that are closer to NYC, more heavily influenced by NYC politically, culturally, sports, etc.
So the real problem is Western NY vs. NYC. Split the state in half. NYC keeps the Upstate beauty of the Adirondacks, Catskills, Utica and Albany. Utica will form the northwest edge of the state and it will go up to Canada and come back around to Albany and onto the Catskills and NYC. This includes both river valleys (Mohawk and Hudson). Utica being IN the Mohawk Valley. Then everything from Syracuse westward can be its own state. Geographically its flatter, sports team alliances, etc. Its a win-win. The average intra-state distance is 3 hours for both. Beautiful.
As a former upstater, I will say this point is one of the main reasons I would have liked to see the state divided. I did not like the idea of my taxes going anywhere near the people who think that they are so high and mighty, and we were just to stupid. I notice that alot of NYC people have weekend homes in upstate, if we are a cesspool of corruption why bother they could easily enough go into one of the other surrounding states and enjoy life. Just because we did not grow up in a huge city does not mean we do not know they ways of the world. Get off your high horse and look into a mirror you are no different physically then everyone but mentally I feel you have a complex. Also if businesses in NYC would stop buying from others because of a state split they would have the problem not us.
Just because YOU didnt grow up in a big city. Youd have an issue just as much with anyone from Albany, Syracuse, Rochester or Buffalo.
There are many people that live in Upstate NY that LIVE IN CITIES. The majority DOES.
Claiming ignorance is stupid anyway but even as an Upstater, you cant blame people for worrying or caring about things that actually matter.
What matters? NYC does.
You advocate separating so you can get what YOU want and become ignorant yourself in your own little way in Upstate NY. Its a shame you dont see this.
What the heck are you even talking about? What is your argument here? I'm afraid I don't see the point you are trying to make.
Splitting the state in 2 would probably benefit both halfs. Upstate could be more fiscally conservative like it wants to be and downstate could stop "subsidizing" upstate if in fact that is the case.
What the heck are you even talking about? What is your argument here? I'm afraid I don't see the point you are trying to make.
Splitting the state in 2 would probably benefit both halfs. Upstate could be more fiscally conservative like it wants to be and downstate could stop "subsidizing" upstate if in fact that is the case.
Upstaters whine about this downstate ignorance.
and youre talking to an Upstater. Theres just as much ignorance in Upstaters.
As far as splitting the state. Its not "Upstate/Downstate" its "Western NY/Downstate."
If there was a split it should be Western NY and the rest of the state. Its not Upstate vs. downstate, its Buffalo vs. NYC. Split it at the middle. Do you really think Albany and Buffalo should be in the same state considering their geography? Albany is 2 hours closer to Buffalo, in a completely different region, its a hub for Montreal, Boston and obviously NYC. It has political ties, economic ties, cultural ties to downstate. Split the state between Syracuse and Utica. Western NY gets their half, ENY gets the mountains, and NYC. Everything within these two states is 3 hours.
West New York, like West Virginia, and New York, like Virginia.
and youre talking to an Upstater. Theres just as much ignorance in Upstaters.
As far as splitting the state. Its not "Upstate/Downstate" its "Western NY/Downstate."
If there was a split it should be Western NY and the rest of the state. Its not Upstate vs. downstate, its Buffalo vs. NYC. Split it at the middle. Do you really think Albany and Buffalo should be in the same state considering their geography? Albany is 2 hours closer to Buffalo, in a completely different region, its a hub for Montreal, Boston and obviously NYC. It has political ties, economic ties, cultural ties to downstate. Split the state between Syracuse and Utica. Western NY gets their half, ENY gets the mountains, and NYC. Everything within these two states is 3 hours.
West New York, like West Virginia, and New York, like Virginia.
That split is ver betum what I have said multiple times. Split it east/west. I live in Rochester and know that WNY is very different from Albany. My ideal theoretical split has always been Binghamton to Watertown westward splitting off. Excluding Albany and the adirondacks which would stick with LI/NYC
Damn it, I just had a long reply written and then hit "Post Quick Reply" and wasn't logged in. Don't you guys hate it when that happens? Anyway, the gist of it (I know I will not express this nearly as eloquently this time) was that it would get too confusing dividing NYS assets.
It's like a divorce. Both spouses paid for stuff, so when the divorce comes how do you determine who owes whom for what? Obviously, the Thruway and NYC bridges are easy because they are only paid for by the people who use them and don't receive state funding. But then stuff like the LIE and the Northway. Upstaters paid for the LIE and downstaters paid for the Northway. So who owes whom? It'd get so crazy trying to divide the state's assets that the benefits fly away.
PLUS, it has been said that Upstate has all these SUNYs and state prisons. Downstate provides most of the SUNY students and prisoners, and these schools and prisons provide upstate with jobs so both sides benefit. You split the state, and suddenly Upstate has too many schools and too many prisons, whereas the new downstate now has to build more public colleges and more prisons. So upstate loses jobs and downstate now has to spend money it didn't have to before.
So this got me thinking. What about something like the system in Hong Kong? Hong Kong is a part of China, but has different laws than the rest of China. Chinese sovereignty, Hong Kong autonomy. What would you guys say to a "One state, two systems" kind of government in New York? Certain expenses like colleges and prisons could be shared, whereas things like business, highways, welfare schools, etc. the two separate areas could charge their own taxes? There is nothing in the US constitution saying New York couldn't do this. The NY constitution, of course, would have to be re-written.
That split is ver betum what I have said multiple times. Split it east/west. I live in Rochester and know that WNY is very different from Albany. My ideal theoretical split has always been Binghamton to Watertown westward splitting off. Excluding Albany and the adirondacks which would stick with LI/NYC
The only thing is, you take away Albany's status as capital city (and if you split east/west there is no way to justify Albany retaining that status) and it becomes economically devastated since its entire economy revolves around government jobs. In which case it would then belong with the other upstate cities.
So this got me thinking. What about something like the system in Hong Kong? Hong Kong is a part of China, but has different laws than the rest of China. Chinese sovereignty, Hong Kong autonomy. What would you guys say to a "One state, two systems" kind of government in New York? Certain expenses like colleges and prisons could be shared, whereas things like business, highways, welfare schools, etc. the two separate areas could charge their own taxes? There is nothing in the US constitution saying New York couldn't do this. The NY constitution, of course, would have to be re-written.
It's really not even that complicated. Laws can be written and passed in a more intelligent manner that respects regional differences, such as the new "Mobility Tax" that funds the MTA by taxing only employers in NYC and its suburban counties. Why can't this level of common sense be applied to Medicaid mandates or the "Scaffold Law", which unnecessarily drives up construction and worker's comp costs Upstate?
The problem is that the governance process is simply broken and our state government is totally dysfunctional. Since this government is 100% controlled by exactly three men, all from NYC (Paterson, Silver and Smith), and downstate legislators hold a two-thirds majority in both houses, there is a feeling that Upstate has no voice in Albany, and that a new state would be more responsive to its needs.
Also, resentment to NYC is not limited to Upstate. Long Islanders have long contended that their voice is not heard either, and that they pay $3B more than they receive. Staten Island even tried to secede from NYC, which actually went to a referendum in 1993 and was defeated.
The entire debate is moot since a divide will never happen, but for the sake of answering, the split should be West/East, not exactly "Upstate/Downstate".
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