African American thinks there are not enough of his people in Western Fairfax (Arlington: houses, high school)
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From the various responses, I think the answer to the original concern can be distilled down to two things.
1) Many people still tend to move where they perceive they will feel most comfortable or welcomed. Regarding African Americans, present demographics - including level of access to culturally relevant retailers - as well as potentially outdated anecdotes may all be factors.
2) A relatively lower average of income and wealth by African Americans makes housing a better value in SE Fairfax, Prince William County VA as well as Prince George County MD than in generally more affluent western Fairfax.
From the various responses, I think the answer to the original concern can be distilled down to two things.
1) Many people still tend to move where they perceive they will feel most comfortable or welcomed. Regarding African Americans, present demographics - including level of access to culturally relevant retailers - as well as potentially outdated anecdotes may all be factors.
2) A relatively lower average of income and wealth by African Americans makes housing a better value in SE Fairfax, Prince William County VA as well as Prince George County MD than in generally more affluent western Fairfax.
Yes I think that is a great way of summarizing the discussion.
From the various responses, I think the answer to the original concern can be distilled down to two things.
1) Many people still tend to move where they perceive they will feel most comfortable or welcomed. Regarding African Americans, present demographics - including level of access to culturally relevant retailers - as well as potentially outdated anecdotes may all be factors.
2) A relatively lower average of income and wealth by African Americans makes housing a better value in SE Fairfax, Prince William County VA as well as Prince George County MD than in generally more affluent western Fairfax.
Its also possible that african americans, due to their experiences with discrimination, may strongly prefer an area with what they see as a critical mass of african americans - and find that more in Md and along the Rte 1 corridor than in western FFX - which may be quite independent of whether there is more antiblack racism in western FFX than in, say, MoCo.
Note, if black racism is driivng black locational decisions, and blacks are more antisemitic than other groups, the movement of african americans to MoCo is puzzling.
Note - AFAICT korean americans leaving annandale are seeking areas with a significant concentration of korean americans - favoring centreville strongly over other areas.
Smaller ethnic groups, by necessity accept living in more mixed circumstances than they might prefer. Many more NY Jews live in Jewish majority areas than Greater DC Jews (even including MoCo) - thats not because NY Jews are "more bigoted against gentiles" than the Jews of Fairfax or Bethesda or Cleveland Park, but because the options they face are different.
As for different ethnic groups making different tradeoffs to get "good schools" that may be because of different priorities to socio-economic mobility - or it may be that different groups have different views of the value of certain schools in impacting life chances. Some people who are not african american believe that some people in this area overestimate the impact of a "quality secondary school" on admission to a selective University, and the impact of admission to a selective university, on life chances.
All in all its a complex phenomenon. Using it to rank order the 'goodness' of different racial groups, who have had vastly different experiences in the USA, is somewhat distasteful.
Its also possible that african americans, due to their experiences with discrimination, may strongly prefer an area with what they see as a critical mass of african americans - and find that more in Md and along the Rte 1 corridor than in western FFX - which may be quite independent of whether there is more antiblack racism in western FFX than in, say, MoCo.
Note, if black racism is driivng black locational decisions, and blacks are more antisemitic than other groups, the movement of african americans to MoCo is puzzling.
Note - AFAICT korean americans leaving annandale are seeking areas with a significant concentration of korean americans - favoring centreville strongly over other areas.
Smaller ethnic groups, by necessity accept living in more mixed circumstances than they might prefer. Many more NY Jews live in Jewish majority areas than Greater DC Jews (even including MoCo) - thats not because NY Jews are "more bigoted against gentiles" than the Jews of Fairfax or Bethesda or Cleveland Park, but because the options they face are different.
As for different ethnic groups making different tradeoffs to get "good schools" that may be because of different priorities to socio-economic mobility - or it may be that different groups have different views of the value of certain schools in impacting life chances. Some people who are not african american believe that some people in this area overestimate the impact of a "quality secondary school" on admission to a selective University, and the impact of admission to a selective university, on life chances.
All in all its a complex phenomenon. Using it to rank order the 'goodness' of different racial groups, who have had vastly different experiences in the USA, is somewhat distasteful.
I understand where you're coming from although I'm uncertain as to whether all of your reply was meant for me specifically.
It's a free country. The OP's friend can live wherever he pleases and can afford. The OP asked the rest of us what we think about his friend's attitude regarding residential self-segregation in context of western Fairfax.
I have no problem with people who want to self-segregate. I think it's their loss. What I will not take lying down, however, is an entire region of western Fairfax being painted as "residually racist" or "unwelcoming to blacks" or whatever those words mean based on a vague feeling some might have, possibly out of their own racial thoughts.
My own take on this is that I evaluate people on their actions and behaviors, not what they cannot change like phenotype and ethnic origin. I don't want to live next to people who commit a lot of crime -- I think that's an entirely appropriate rational discrimination. I think that's very different than not wanting live in an area that is "too white." I would criticize just as strenuously if a Hispanic person did not want to live in an area for it being "too black" or if a white person didn't want "too yellow."
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Originally Posted by CAVA1990
It could just be based on what folks' are used to and comfortable with. A white person who grew up on tree lined streets in middle class white suburbia probably couldn't fathom the idea of living in an apartment on Route 1 but if you grew up in one you might consider it a pretty attractive way to save a few bucks. People tend to follow familiar lifestyles.
And yet legions of white kids who grew up in boring tree-lined Midwestern suburbs flock to highly diverse Brooklyn everyday, living in apartments smaller than their closets back home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509
From the various responses, I think the answer to the original concern can be distilled down to two things.
1) Many people still tend to move where they perceive they will feel most comfortable or welcomed. Regarding African Americans, present demographics - including level of access to culturally relevant retailers - as well as potentially outdated anecdotes may all be factors.
2) A relatively lower average of income and wealth by African Americans makes housing a better value in SE Fairfax, Prince William County VA as well as Prince George County MD than in generally more affluent western Fairfax.
That's a fair summary and accurately captures the discussion so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Note, if black racism is driivng black locational decisions, and blacks are more antisemitic than other groups, the movement of african americans to MoCo is puzzling.
ADL has run a survey of antisemitic attitudes since the 60's and these surveys show that, despite Jews consistently harboring the least anti-black prejudice in America, blacks persistently hold substantially higher anti-Jewish views than, say, whites. And whereas such prejudice declines dramatically as education levels rise in other ethnic groups, the surveys show that among blacks it variously increases, stays the same or falls much less dramatically. Since this is off-topic, if you are interested in further continuing this discussion, I suggest we take it to another subforum or DM.
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Note - AFAICT korean americans leaving annandale are seeking areas with a significant concentration of korean americans - favoring centreville strongly over other areas.
Except Koreans aren't avoiding other areas for being "too white." Koreans are found everywhere from MoCo to Centreville. As another poster pointed out in another thread, Centreville tends to attract less well-to-do Koreans. Better off ones seem to flock to areas like Oakton and parts of Dulle Tech Corridor. I very much doubt that most, if any, Koreans would write off Oakton, Great Falls or Clifton as "too white" if they could afford homes there.
Quote:
Using it to rank order the 'goodness' of different racial groups, who have had vastly different experiences in the USA, is somewhat distasteful.
And who's been engaging in this distateful practice of ranking "goodness" of racial groups, pray tell?
I've been following this thread since the beginning, and I, as a black man living in NoVA, find reasons behind both sides of the argument. On one end, I will say that the area has historically been a racially segregated area. And minus the outer beltway suburbs, little of that has changed. People who have moved here in the past decade or so may not grasp that, so my suggestion to those individuals is to take heed of word from those who have lived in the DC area longer than yourselves.
But with that being said, I tend to find that minus McLean, Great Falls, and Clifton, the NW neighborhoods and inner beltway suburbs tend to be have less blacks (and yes, more leery of blacks) than the outer-beltway suburbs, including Western Fairfax. Truth be told, the most unwelcoming (albeit covertly) attitude I've been given from non-blacks has been from transplant and yuppie whites in DC itself who live very close to predominately black neighborhoods targeted for gentrification. The next least welcoming group, although not as unwelcoming as those in the District, have been the non-blacks in Arlington, Alexandria, and Bethesda. Ironically, I feel the racial tension lessening when I go outside of the beltway northward and westward. From my experience, the least racist places in this area tend to be in Prince William, Loudoun, Stafford (yes, Stafford), and peculiar parts of Fairfax like Reston, Lorton, Herndon, Fair Lakes, and Springfield, in addition to outside beltway parts of Montgomery County like Rockville, Gaithersburg, and Aspen Hill, and Olney. But take note on a similarity between all of those towns: all of the following places have a sizable black population. Now places that are diverse yet have little blacks in comparison like Centreville, Chantilly, and Manassas can be wild cards, but I still tend to find those places less racially unwelcoming than the preppy and yuppie dominated parts of NW DC.
But take note that I'm not a black person who really is comfortable with the "black culture" that you usually see in DC and PG County. In fact, I detest the culture that dominates that place. And as a former resident of that place, I see myself in the same position in NoVA as a Cuban refugee sees himself in Florida, and Marion Barry as no different than a Cuban refugee sees Fidel Castro. But I will say that blacks who live between Alexandria and Stafford are definitely much better as people and representatives of African Americans than those of DC and PG County.
Did anyone consider that plenty of the OP's "own kind" specifically want to live in a "whiter" area, so that they may enjoy a few things like lower crime, better schools, and higher life expectancy?
Did anyone consider that plenty of the OP's "own kind" specifically want to live in a "whiter" area, so that they may enjoy a few things like lower crime, better schools, and higher life expectancy?
He was asking why few non-whites live in white areas so your incendiary remark missed the point. However, I suspect you two would get along great - perhaps over in the politics and controversies forum.
I've been following this thread since the beginning, and I, as a black man living in NoVA, find reasons behind both sides of the argument. On one end, I will say that the area has historically been a racially segregated area. And minus the outer beltway suburbs, little of that has changed. People who have moved here in the past decade or so may not grasp that, so my suggestion to those individuals is to take heed of word from those who have lived in the DC area longer than yourselves.
But with that being said, I tend to find that minus McLean, Great Falls, and Clifton, the NW neighborhoods and inner beltway suburbs tend to be have less blacks (and yes, more leery of blacks) than the outer-beltway suburbs, including Western Fairfax. Truth be told, the most unwelcoming (albeit covertly) attitude I've been given from non-blacks has been from transplant and yuppie whites in DC itself who live very close to predominately black neighborhoods targeted for gentrification. The next least welcoming group, although not as unwelcoming as those in the District, have been the non-blacks in Arlington, Alexandria, and Bethesda. Ironically, I feel the racial tension lessening when I go outside of the beltway northward and westward. From my experience, the least racist places in this area tend to be in Prince William, Loudoun, Stafford (yes, Stafford), and peculiar parts of Fairfax like Reston, Lorton, Herndon, Fair Lakes, and Springfield, in addition to outside beltway parts of Montgomery County like Rockville, Gaithersburg, and Aspen Hill, and Olney. But take note on a similarity between all of those towns: all of the following places have a sizable black population. Now places that are diverse yet have little blacks in comparison like Centreville, Chantilly, and Manassas can be wild cards, but I still tend to find those places less racially unwelcoming than the preppy and yuppie dominated parts of NW DC.
But take note that I'm not a black person who really is comfortable with the "black culture" that you usually see in DC and PG County. In fact, I detest the culture that dominates that place. And as a former resident of that place, I see myself in the same position in NoVA as a Cuban refugee sees himself in Florida, and Marion Barry as no different than a Cuban refugee sees Fidel Castro. But I will say that blacks who live between Alexandria and Stafford are definitely much better as people and representatives of African Americans than those of DC and PG County.
For the most part I agree with what you said. I am also one that doesn't subscribe to the black culture either, so it was pretty easy for me to pack my bags and move out of MD. With that said, I think if a black person would want to live in an area where they are the only or one of the only blacks in that area, it takes a lot of boldness and my hat goes off to those individuals. You certainly take a risk regardless of where you live, but without having any evidence that you will be accepted as just another person in the neighborhood and not by being defined by your race, it's an even bigger risk in my opinion.
I also want to re-iterate something that someone mentioned earlier. There are some black people who grew up in all-white neighborhoods and did not enjoy their times there, so they are very quick to go to places like PG and DC where they won't have to deal with those type of environments. It's sad but people really draw from their previous experiences to determine what kind of neighborhood they are comfortable with.
I've been following this thread since the beginning, and I, as a black man living in NoVA, find reasons behind both sides of the argument. On one end, I will say that the area has historically been a racially segregated area. And minus the outer beltway suburbs, little of that has changed. People who have moved here in the past decade or so may not grasp that, so my suggestion to those individuals is to take heed of word from those who have lived in the DC area longer than yourselves.
But with that being said, I tend to find that minus McLean, Great Falls, and Clifton, the NW neighborhoods and inner beltway suburbs tend to be have less blacks (and yes, more leery of blacks) than the outer-beltway suburbs, including Western Fairfax. Truth be told, the most unwelcoming (albeit covertly) attitude I've been given from non-blacks has been from transplant and yuppie whites in DC itself who live very close to predominately black neighborhoods targeted for gentrification. The next least welcoming group, although not as unwelcoming as those in the District, have been the non-blacks in Arlington, Alexandria, and Bethesda. Ironically, I feel the racial tension lessening when I go outside of the beltway northward and westward. From my experience, the least racist places in this area tend to be in Prince William, Loudoun, Stafford (yes, Stafford), and peculiar parts of Fairfax like Reston, Lorton, Herndon, Fair Lakes, and Springfield, in addition to outside beltway parts of Montgomery County like Rockville, Gaithersburg, and Aspen Hill, and Olney. But take note on a similarity between all of those towns: all of the following places have a sizable black population. Now places that are diverse yet have little blacks in comparison like Centreville, Chantilly, and Manassas can be wild cards, but I still tend to find those places less racially unwelcoming than the preppy and yuppie dominated parts of NW DC.
But take note that I'm not a black person who really is comfortable with the "black culture" that you usually see in DC and PG County. In fact, I detest the culture that dominates that place. And as a former resident of that place, I see myself in the same position in NoVA as a Cuban refugee sees himself in Florida, and Marion Barry as no different than a Cuban refugee sees Fidel Castro. But I will say that blacks who live between Alexandria and Stafford are definitely much better as people and representatives of African Americans than those of DC and PG County.
I agree with this to a large extent - the "yuppie" element in the inner Beltway in VA is not at all welcoming or friendly to most blacks (unless you are incredibly yuppie yourself lol) in my opinion, especially compared with the majority folks outside the Belt in FFX. I'm not going to limit this to Western Fairfax only, since I haven't lived in this area all that long and other than slightly less visible black population in, say, Reston versus somewhere like Alexandria, I don't see the big difference. For me only, I feel comfortable being in either place.
However, for where I choose to live, I agree with a lot of the other black posters here - I would not want to be a trailblazer coming into an area with very few or no other black people. Racism? Hardly. One poster continues to make the case that Koreans don't care so why should we? I find that a ridiculous argument that can be debunked by a simple picture.
Check out the screenshot below: You can see that the most concentrated area in terms of black population are obviously in parts of Arlington and Alexandria, but those areas also have a higher total population than places like Reston and Herndon. But proportionally? They are about the same. Asians, of which Koreans are a subset, are spread all over the county in high numbers. Even in areas such as Vienna and Oakton there is still a healthy Asian population, which likely includes Koreans (as the second most numerous Asian ethnicity in Fairfax).
So the point I'm trying to make is that I think that it's somewhat unfair to point at Western Fairfax specifically as being covertly racist - the numbers and my own personal experience working out here every single day says differently. The history is likely different and those that have lived here for a long time might have a completely different perspective. But from the perspective of a transplant I've seen nothing that suggests I should be on my toes any more than usual.
Another point - I know a fair amount of black people that have lived in Herndon, Reston, and Chantilly. Again, I'm generally speaking about workers 30 or younger. They really didn't have anything bad to say about Western Fairfax other than its distance from DC (since that's the nightlife/entertainment hub) and the economics related to the Dulles Toll Road. Never heard anyone talk about any racism there.
Finally to address another point I read earlier in the thread where someone made the point that lots of white kids go to Brooklyn every day to live in studios smaller than their closets back in the Midwest or something to that effect. Well, that is true, but its also true that far more Midwestern white kids choose NOT to go to Brooklyn to live that lifestyle, but choose something more similar to that which they are familiiar with. Like any other group people, black people have diverse preferences and do not behave as a monolithic bloc. Some black people prefer to self-segregate, as do some whites. Some prefer diversity, as do some whites. It is not all that different. The only difference is what people can afford.
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