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It's really hard to say. I can tell you that for me, it's a vibe.
So long as we all recognize that feelings and vibes are sometimes inaccurate and do not necessarily capture the objective reality, I'm good. In general, I'd like to rely on measurable metrices especially in regards to social policy (personal or government). I also recognize that that's not always possible. That doesn't mean we should stop looking for them.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
I wouldnt use my experiences of being the only Jew in a room, or the only northerner in a room, or even the only American in a room, to assume I understand the experiences of the only black or gay - or even the only Orthodox Jew - in a room. Not all experiences of alienation are alike. Any of us who has been part of more than one minority knows that - due to different histories, power relations, cultural differences.
Do contexts of alienation have to be exactly the same for different people to have empathy about alienation and meeting of minds? I fall on the side of those who hold the view that we human beings are far more alike than different, despite obvious and measurable group differences based on genetics and environment (which are differences of degrees not "on/off").
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Critical mass matters more for some groups and in some circumstances than others.
I think some of us are attempting to discern why "critical mass" matters more for some groups in context of western Fairfax.
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Originally Posted by Tone509
In all cases, higher economic status could alleviate perceptions to some or full extent.
I agree wholeheartedly. Like I wrote before, in my old Ashburn neighborhood I had two very close black neighbors. One was a doctor (from a highly educated family) and the other was an IT executive (and from a poverty-stricken family and the first in his family to go to college). Both got along very well with their neighbors of similar economic and professional standing and they both expressed how happy they were with their neighborhood.
This isn't just anecdotal. Recent research has shown that income and professional status seem to be the new markers of residential segreation, not race.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
there are parts of PG county where you can buy a 'mcmansion' in a gated community for a LOT less than in parts of NoVa with comparable commutes to major employment centers in DC. Now a case can be made against PG public schools, to be sure, but seeing as there's no shortage of people who choose homes like that who either homeschool, send their kids to private schools, or have no kids at home, and yet those neighborhoods in those parts of PG are almost 100% black, Ive got to think that there are a lot of non-blacks who are just uncomfortable in a 100% black area.
What about crime rate? Education level? Lots of people homeschool but want to live near where public schools are good quality because the latter is a proxy for certain non-racial demographic factors that are seen to be positive and good long-term value proposition.
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As for Anacostia, theres actually a growing group of black yuppies there (and a smaller group of whites who've moved in). I think a lot of whites would still be uncomfortable moving there though.
Remember that reputations lag new developments. Plus, despite improvements in Anacostia, its crime and education numbers may not make it competitive yet with nearby regions.
Nonetheless, it seems quite a few previously heavily black areas are popular with young, affluent whites despite the presence of a large number of blacks in nearby areas. By your logic, wouldn't these places continue to be eeky to these allegedly racist whites?
Nonetheless, it seems quite a few previously heavily black areas are popular with young, affluent whites despite the presence of a large number of blacks in nearby areas.
often the first whites to move in are NOT affluent whites - but artists, grad students, and other relatively financially challenged people. Here in DC they are often people who work for NGOs, etc who not only have relatively low incomes, but are somewhat different in attitudes and ideologies from even other young urban whites. And even then, they most typically move to a block thats no more than a few blocks away from other areas with more whites - its not like moving to an area five or ten miles from other concentrations of whites. In the case of Anacostia, the fact that its seperated by a river (albeit one with bridges more or less suitable for walking) from areas that already have significant numbers of whites, may be a barrier that has not happened in other areas.
What about crime rate? Education level? Lots of people homeschool but want to live near where public schools are good quality because the latter is a proxy for certain non-racial demographic factors that are seen to be positive and good long-term value proposition.?
locational decisions sure are complex, arent they? That leads me to beleive that trying to deduce group attitudes from patterns of locational decisions is a losing proposition. I wouldnt rule out a serious social scientist trying to find a way to do it - but I don't think the discussion on this thread is at all illuminating on this issue.
Plus, despite improvements in Anacostia, its crime and education numbers may not make it competitive yet with nearby regions.
AFAICT the black yuppies who are moving are just as concerned with crime (I doubt yuppies with kids of either race are moving into anacostia in any numbers). I really think there is a difference in comfort level.
It's really hard to say. I can tell you that for me, it's a vibe. I've been to certain parts of western Fairfax that I just got funny looks, but I didn't necessarily attribute that to the area in general, but given the fact that there are so few blacks in that area, to me it seems as though there is something not quite adding up. Clifton is very expensive so it's somewhat understandable but Centreville is much more affordable and the population doesn't reflect that, as in it's more affordable for the average black person. To me that is a red flag. I look at it the other way too, I think a place that is 90-100% of any race is an issue. This is the same reasoning I used for why I wouldn't move to Bristow, Gainesville, Capitol Heights, Anacostia, etc. I think people who live in these areas are often times ignorant (not necessarily hateful) of people different than them. I don't want my children thinking that everybody that they will deal with in life are black or they will be white. They need to know different people from different backgrounds so they can understand and respect those who are different than them.
It's not just you. Many people in Fairfax County give other people funny looks or the grim/sour face. Perhaps they think it gives them that "I'm so important--are you as important as me?" quality, like two wild animals having a confrontation in a nature program. Primitive.
I am a petite white female and not scary-looking (my husband says I look like Scottish actress Kelly MacDonald--that would be nice). I got sour looks and rude treatment from people in Fairfax County/NoVA frequently (especially women). To those who say it is all my fault: Only a culture that favors elitist bullies would believe that. I am actually a courteous, respectful and friendly person. For all the touted diversity and tolerance in NoVA, there still seems to be considerable emphasis on stereotypes and an unwillingness to connect to others who may be different in looks and/or have different perspectives.
this!!!!! It's not about the number of or racial feelings of white people in an area. We understand that some people are racist and some aren't, that's a given and a constant. Being afraid of racism, at least for me, isn't something i waste my time doing. You encounter it, you deal with it, you move on.
The issue is just about feeling comfortable and generally speaking, if you have something of a critical mass of other black people (defined however that person wants to define it), it's just more comfortable to live day-to-day. It's just kind of a vibe. It's a feeling of not being different. And if you are in a truly diverse area, then its a huge bonus that not only do you get to be around other blacks, but you get to be around other types of people, period.
Do you get what i'm saying now? I guarantee you, no matter how non-racist a white person might be, 99/100 wouldn't be comfortable in anacostia, for whatever reason. Is it because there's too many blacks? Maybe, maybe not? Is it because it's not enough whites? Maybe, maybe not.
But if the latter statement is true, could you truly say that's racism? Not in my opinion. It's just about being comfortable.
I can't speak for "white people," because I am not "white" (but I've known a few people who say they are ) but I am personally very comfortable in areas with lots of black people that also happens to be safe (low crime) and have a well-educated population. While I am personally not all that bothered by my varying environments (I've been to highly dangerous war zones), I am not as comfortable bringing my wife and kids to an area with high crime rate, widespread drug use and low degree of education whatever the ethnic composition of the area. Meth or crack, makes no difference to me -- both bad.
In the above scenario, it could indeed be that some whites may avoid Anacostia because of large number of blacks or because of the paucity of whites. It's also possible that they might avoid the area because of its relatively higher crime rate. You can't simply assume it's all or partly based on race, because there is a big difference between irrational discrimination ("Eeek, dark people!") and rational discrimination ("Eeek, homicides and assaults!").
Here is the reason why I disagreed with this when you stated it earlier. Such a place does not or likely won't ever exist. And if it did, it wouldn't be strictly black. Any place that has low crime and highly educated people is going to attract all walks of life. Some would argue, with your logic that having well-educated people as a requirement, is you assuming that uneducated people will contribute to you having a poor experience, but isn't that simply your perception? Having an education isn't going to determine how good or bad neighbor will be, so why would you use it as requirement since you say that perceiving things about people is wrong?
I can't speak for "white people," because I am not "white" (but I've known a few people who say they are ) but I am personally very comfortable in areas with lots of black people that also happens to be safe (low crime) and have a well-educated population. While I am personally not all that bothered by my varying environments (I've been to highly dangerous war zones), I am not as comfortable bringing my wife and kids to an area with high crime rate, widespread drug use and low degree of education whatever the ethnic composition of the area. Meth or crack, makes no difference to me -- both bad.
In the above scenario, it could indeed be that some whites may avoid Anacostia because of large number of blacks or because of the paucity of whites. It's also possible that they might avoid the area because of its relatively higher crime rate. You can't simply assume it's all or partly based on race, because there is a big difference between irrational discrimination ("Eeek, dark people!") and rational discrimination ("Eeek, homicides and assaults!").
Nonetheless, it seems quite a few previously heavily black areas are popular with young, affluent whites despite the presence of a large number of blacks in nearby areas. By your logic, wouldn't these places continue to be eeky to these allegedly racist whites?
No, unless you believe that all whites are racist. There are some whites that will move to areas like these and a legion that would not. And out of that legion, some would not do so for explicitly racial reasons. To deny that is the case is denying reality.
In order to add some consistent structure back to this thread, let's refocus on western Fairfax County compares to the rest of NOVA or the greater DMV area regarding the original topic.
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) but I am personally very comfortable in areas with lots of black people that also happens to be safe (low crime) and have a well-educated population. While I am personally not all that bothered by my varying environments (I've been to highly dangerous war zones), I am not as comfortable bringing my wife and kids to an area with high crime rate, widespread drug use and low degree of education whatever the ethnic composition of the area. Meth or crack, makes no difference to me -- both bad.
