[jfrebel]

I've always considered oklahoma southern. (though that book I read a while back and posted here is compelling) I lived in tulsa for a few months and there folks will get fighting mad if you call oklahoma southern. at least they did with me.

meanwhile where my dad works, in OKC, a confederate flag hangs prominently.

So the funny thing is both sides of this argument could be onto something. I guess it depends on what part of oklahoma you're in.

for instance nowadays could we really call atlanta GA "the south speaking culturally? (which from what I hear and could be wrong but is full of northern migrants) or the southern tip of florida?

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by johnspecial

Wrong. Probably the most wrong post on this thread.

Oklahoma, with its rich, fertile soil and undeveloped resources, was attractive to Southerners ruined by War and Reconstruction. They came in droves, hoping to better their lot. Many of them were Confederate veterans. Like most of the towns in Indian Territory, was populated nearly exclusively by people from the Old South states.

Tulsa seems to be the only place in Oklahoma that has a small minority wishing OK was considered Midwest. Which is funny, btw...considering Tulsa is almost in Arkansas.

Exactly.

And it appears much of that small contingent has found its way to City Data.

My wife and I both have family in the Tulsa area (lived there for several decades, BTW) and I think they would just look at me bewildered if I tried to convince them that they were Midwesterners. I think much of it is transplantation that has permeated small swaths here and there and also the perceived negative connotation of anything Southern.

I agree, also, that one of our major cities which is closest to Arkansas is somehow considered the Midwest? So Arkansas is the Midwest now? An odd thought, for sure. My elderly mom, who grew up on the Oklahoma-Arkansas line, would just be befuddled with that insinuation.

The Tulsans I know would scoff at such a notion. There might be a few who don't prefer the Southern label (folks like this in every Southern state), but they sure as heck wouldn't opt for the Midwest tag. I still see elements of the South and West together. But, having intimated that, the Southern semblances far outweigh the Western touches in the main.

At the end of the day, the few that hope Tulsa somehow becomes the Chicago south of the Mason-Dixon are few and they will never succeed in convincing the majority of Okies of their regional designation preference.

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008

Exactly.

And it appears much of that small contingent has found its way to City Data.

My wife and I both have family in the Tulsa area (lived there for several decades, BTW) and I think they would just look at me bewildered if I tried to convince them that they were Midwesterners. I think much of it is transplantation that has permeated small swaths here and there and also the perceived negative connotation of anything Southern.

I agree, also, that one of our major cities which is closest to Arkansas is somehow considered the Midwest? So Arkansas is the Midwest now? An odd thought, for sure. My elderly mom, who grew up on the Oklahoma-Arkansas line, would just be befuddled with that insinuation.

The Tulsans I know would scoff at such a notion. There might be a few who don't prefer the Southern label (folks like this in every Southern state), but they sure as heck wouldn't opt for the Midwest tag. I still see elements of the South and West together. But, having intimated that, the Southern semblances far outweigh the Western touches in the main.

At the end of the day, the few that hope Tulsa somehow becomes the Chicago south of the Mason-Dixon are few and they will never succeed in convincing the majority of Okies of their regional designation preference.

The parts in bold I strongly agree with!

[swake]

Originally Posted by johnspecial

Wrong. Probably the most wrong post on this thread.

Oklahoma, with its rich, fertile soil and undeveloped resources, was attractive to Southerners ruined by War and Reconstruction. They came in droves, hoping to better their lot. Many of them were Confederate veterans. Like most of the towns in Indian Territory, was populated nearly exclusively by people from the Old South states.

Tulsa seems to be the only place in Oklahoma that has a small minority wishing OK was considered Midwest. Which is funny, btw...considering Tulsa is almost in Arkansas.

Interesting quote but you didn't cite the source. No matter, I found it.
Garvin County, Wynnewood, Oklahoma, Confederate Monument


I notice it's from a civil war monument site, written by a man named Michael Andrew Grissom. Mr Grissom is an author and a leader of a group called League of the South. A "neo-confederate" movement noted as a hate group by the SPLC.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...e-of-the-south

The things you read....

[swake]

Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008

Exactly.

And it appears much of that small contingent has found its way to City Data.

My wife and I both have family in the Tulsa area (lived there for several decades, BTW) and I think they would just look at me bewildered if I tried to convince them that they were Midwesterners. I think much of it is transplantation that has permeated small swaths here and there and also the perceived negative connotation of anything Southern.

I agree, also, that one of our major cities which is closest to Arkansas is somehow considered the Midwest? So Arkansas is the Midwest now? An odd thought, for sure. My elderly mom, who grew up on the Oklahoma-Arkansas line, would just be befuddled with that insinuation.

The Tulsans I know would scoff at such a notion. There might be a few who don't prefer the Southern label (folks like this in every Southern state), but they sure as heck wouldn't opt for the Midwest tag. I still see elements of the South and West together. But, having intimated that, the Southern semblances far outweigh the Western touches in the main.

At the end of the day, the few that hope Tulsa somehow becomes the Chicago south of the Mason-Dixon are few and they will never succeed in convincing the majority of Okies of their regional designation preference.

I think you may be biased. Most people in Tulsa consider the area the midwest. I certainly do and my family has been here for almost 100 years.

The local news outlets certainly don't agree with you. There are many news articles from the last two weeks that call Tulsa/Oklahoma the Midwest:

Tulsa World | Survey: Midwest economy should keep growing
Survey: Midwest economy should keep growing - Tulsa World: Finance

Enid News | Far beyond humble beginnings: For Meibergens and Johnston Grain, it’s a family affair
Far beyond humble beginnings: For Meibergens and Johnston Grain, it

As of this month, the grain business portion of Johnston Enterprises is owned by Louisiana-based CGB Enterprises, a multifaceted agribusiness company that already counted three Oklahoma grain elevators among the 70 Midwest states elevators in its arsenal.

Tahlequah Daily Press | Tinsley time
Tinsley time » Sports » Tahlequah Daily Press

“This is a great opportunity. The success here is unprecedented,” Tinsley said. “Coach Gipson is a legend in Oklahoma. He’s a legend in the Midwest, and I’ve known him through other people for years.

Altsounds | Hanson Announces Hop Jam Craft Beer and Music Festival
Read more at Hanson Announces Hop Jam Craft Beer and Music Festival - #AltSounds
Hanson Announces Hop Jam Craft Beer and Music Festival - #AltSounds

The event will also feature personal appearances by many of the brewers, appealing to the devout beer fans throughout Oklahoma and the midwest.

News on 6 | Port Of Catoosa Begins Work On Major Dock Renovation Project
Port Of Catoosa Begins Work On Major Dock Renovation Project - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

Officials say it has the potential to divert container cargo scheduled for unloading on the West Coast for delivery to the Midwest.

[johnspecial]

Originally Posted by swake

Interesting quote but you didn't cite the source. No matter, I found it.
Garvin County, Wynnewood, Oklahoma, Confederate Monument


I notice it's from a civil war monument site, written by a man named Michael Andrew Grissom. Mr Grissom is an author and a leader of a group called League of the South. A "neo-confederate" movement noted as a hate group by the SPLC.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...e-of-the-south

The things you read....

WOW. You just couldn't be any more clueless could you? Michael Andrew Grissom is the author Southern by the Grace of God. He did not write that passage, nor is he a member of Leagues of the South. LOL and I wouldn't hold any stock in what the Southern Poverty Law Center classifies on anything. I'm glad you brought up that great author though. Southern by the Grace of God is a awesome book and outlines why Oklahoma is indeed a southern state.

LMAO you sir are pretty funny.

The people you meet on the Internet.

[johnspecial]

Originally Posted by swake

I think you may be biased. Most people in Tulsa consider the area the midwest. I certainly do and my family has been here for almost 100 years.

The local news outlets certainly don't agree with you. There are many news articles from the last two weeks that call Tulsa/Oklahoma the Midwest:

Tulsa World | Survey: Midwest economy should keep growing
Survey: Midwest economy should keep growing - Tulsa World: Finance

Enid News | Far beyond humble beginnings: For Meibergens and Johnston Grain, it’s a family affair
Far beyond humble beginnings: For Meibergens and Johnston Grain, it


Tahlequah Daily Press | Tinsley time
Tinsley time » Sports » Tahlequah Daily Press


Altsounds | Hanson Announces Hop Jam Craft Beer and Music Festival
Read more at Hanson Announces Hop Jam Craft Beer and Music Festival - #AltSounds
Hanson Announces Hop Jam Craft Beer and Music Festival - #AltSounds


News on 6 | Port Of Catoosa Begins Work On Major Dock Renovation Project
Port Of Catoosa Begins Work On Major Dock Renovation Project - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

The AP Stylebook that is a required handbook for journalist but often neglected.

South
As defined by the U.S.
Census Bureau, the 16-state
region is broken into three divisions.

The four East South Central
states are Alabama, Kentucky,
Mississippi and Tennessee.
The eight

South Atlantic states are
Delaware, Florida, Georgia,
Maryland, North Carolina, South
Carolina, Virginia and West Virginia.

The four West South Central
states are Arkansas, Louisiana,
Oklahoma and Texas.
http://www.quarterboundpress.com/qbp...ide%202005.pdf


So whenever you run across a commercial or a article that mentions Oklahoma as a midwestern state you have one of two scenarios in play.

1. They are too lazy to use an approved stylebook
2. Have a bias and want to change the perception(this is the most probable scenario for Tulsa writers)

You are outgunned here. I have given you concrete sources that outline settlement patterns, culture, religion and politics. All you have is a strong desire to disassociate Oklahoma with the south using examples of lazy journalism and uneducated writers.

and to be honest with you, Tulsa really doesn't matter. It's the only area you find these people and not the cultural espicenter in Okalhoma. The majority of people in Oklahoma City and all other towns in Oklahoma consider Oklahoma southern or western south.

[swake]

Originally Posted by johnspecial

WOW. You just couldn't be any more clueless could you? Michael Andrew Grissom is the author Southern by the Grace of God. He did not write that passage, nor is he a member of Leagues of the South. LOL and I wouldn't hold any stock in what the Southern Poverty Law Center classifies on anything. I'm glad you brought up that great author though. Southern by the Grace of God is a awesome book and outlines why Oklahoma is indeed a southern state.

LMAO you sir are pretty funny.

The people you meet on the Internet.

He's a white power racist hack. Here are a couple of groups he's involved with:
Official Website of the League of the South!
Top Conservative News

Here's a long message from Grissom himself:
Press Release from FreeSouth.org

[johnspecial]

Originally Posted by swake

He's a white power racist hack. Here are a couple of groups he's involved with:
Official Website of the League of the South!
Top Conservative News

Here's a long message from Grissom himself:
Press Release from FreeSouth.org

LOL that organization is merely mentioning something he wrote elsewhere. He is not a member of that group, Cletus. Nowhere is there a promotion of racism or anything resembling hate. You really need to remove yourself from far left websites.

You have lost this one pal. Just lick your wounds and move on. Oklahoma is not part of the midwest.

[swake]

You should read his letter then. Blacks are the enemy. Don't deny racism.

He's a nazi/white power/southern pride/KKK style racist. One of his kind just killed an Eagle Scout and his grandfather in Kansas City for the crime of being Jewish. Michael Andrew Grissom and people like him or that follow him are evil.