[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by teakboat

Yes we do haha

People in Georgia and Alabama likewise do not include us in the South.

Tulsa was indeed founded by midwesterners. That is why Tulsa's downtown looks like an old Indianapolis. I do business with midwesterners every day. There is zero cultural gap. This big divide is only in your heads.

While there were a few southerners who were Tulsa oilmen. McFarlin and Gilcrease most notably, the majority were not.

Skelly: Not southern
Getty: Not southern
Sinclair: Not southern
Phillips: Not southern.

The point of this is that they wanted Tulsa to have a sophistication that would be well, not southern so they founded all kinds of cultural things that made Tulsa seem more like a midwestern city or northeastern city than it would have otherwise.

Once again, this is not to say that Tulsa doesn't have a southern component. But this midwestern blue blood stuff existed then and still exists today in that city.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by teakboat

Not much farther south. Tulsa is a little lower in latitude than Saint Louis. We are quite a bit higher in latitude than Mobile Alabama. A warm summer day in Columbus Ohio vs a warm day in Tulsa, It ices up a few weeks earlier in Columbus than in Tulsa. I can drive between the two in a day. What difference does it really make?

Oklahoma has strong elements of the south, the midwest, Texas, and the southwest. It is difficult to define it past that statement. Sorry for the incongruity and painful cognitive dissonance. Maybe we should just have a cold beer.

No problem. I do think climate is a significant difference as Oklahoma is more aligned with Texas than the Midwest.

Columbus, OH climate:
Average Weather for Columbus, OH - Temperature and Precipitation


Tulsa, OK climate:

Average Weather for Tulsa, OK - Temperature and Precipitation


And this is the climate that is common in the CORE of the Midwest where I live:

Madison, WI climate:

Average Weather for Madison, WI - Temperature and Precipitation

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

No problem. I do think climate is a significant difference as Oklahoma is more aligned with Texas than the Midwest.

Columbus, OH climate:
Average Weather for Columbus, OH - Temperature and Precipitation


Tulsa, OK climate:

Average Weather for Tulsa, OK - Temperature and Precipitation


And this is the climate that is common in the CORE of the Midwest where I live:

Madison, WI climate:

Average Weather for Madison, WI - Temperature and Precipitation

I appreciate the presentation of real facts, GraniteStater, but I'm already on record warning people who post facts in these threads---the facts mostly fall on deaf ears for the small but very tenacious "Oklahoma is the Midwest" contingent.

Even when a true Midwesterner from Madison, WI looks them right in the face and says "Oklahoma is not the Midwest" (see the plethora of posts on the General Forum thread). They'll just shake their head and reply "What do you know, and what credentials do you bring to the table to tell me/us I'm not from the Midwest. I'm in the Midwest because I believe so."

You continue the discourse and you say "Well, not only am I from an undeniably Midwest state, also the weather pattern in Oklahoma is not really like the Midwest, and the terrain is not very Midwestern, and the Census has Oklahoma in this little regional critter known as the West South Central, and the majority of the settlers to Oklahoma were from Southern stock (not to mention the original Southerners, the NDNS), and there are really no credible maps that have Oklahoma included in the Midwest, Okies don't really talk like Midwesterners, and oh yeh, the cultural semblances (dialect, food, customs, religious preferences) of Okies are not that similar to tried and true Midwestern states. So yeh, Oklahoma is not in the Midwest." They still look the true Midwesterner from Wisconsin dead in the eye and say, "Yeh, well that's your opinion."

What it really comes down to is a whole lotta eschewing of the facts.

Thanks for setting us South-Centralers straight, GraniteStater. It's good to get some genuine perspective from a bonafied Wisconsinite/Midwesterner. Be careful though. We've got a few on here who will try to embarrass you and make you feel plumb ignorant for asserting that Oklahoma is not located in the Midwest. Tread lightly, Friend.

Thanks again for giving us some REAL Midwestern perspective.

Sincerley,

A Bonafied Okie

[XUHopeful]

From what little experience that I do have with OK, I'll have to agree with the comment of everything east of 69/75 being more like the Mid/Upper South. I won't say it's like the Deep South, but it's definitely congruent with NWAr, SW MO, and East TX. West of OKC is SXSW.

[swake]

Oh god, not this again.

[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by swake

Oh god, not this again.

Well it's either this or tornadoes and earthquakes.

[Howest2008]

Originally Posted by Dawn.Davenport

In terms of culture, geography, and identity, would you consider Oklahoma to be part of the Southwest (along with Arizona and New Mexico), part of the South (with Louisiana, Arkansas, and Tennessee), or part of the Midwest (with Iowa, Missouri, and Nebraska)?

Why don't you ask people in the three regions that you highlighted (the South) ( the Midwest) and ( the Southwest) none of them thinks that Oklahoma belong in their region....LOL

I was stationed in Mississippi , Alabama and Florida and also Georgia during my military enlistment and none of those folks considered Oklahoma belongs to The SOUTH......

[Howest2008]

Tulsa Oklahoma has a very large segment of the total population that's Catholic , and I would go as far as saying that the African-American Community has a large "Catholic Demographic" as a matter of fact I went to a Catholic School my kindergarten year "Santa Monica Catholic Church" located on the north side of Tulsa Oklahoma the African American side of town.

[Howest2008]

Tulsa Oklahoma has a very large segment of the total population that's Catholic , and I would go as far as saying that the African-American Community has a large "Catholic Demographic" as a matter of fact I went to a Catholic School my kindergarten year "Santa Monica Catholic Church" located on the north side of Tulsa Oklahoma the African American side of town.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by dvxhd

It's hard to describe. At home, self-expression wasn't really a big deal, but conformity and cultural norms seem to be more encouraged here. No one has the Okie or Southern accents there, unless they moved from those areas. There are also speech patterns and words used in those areas that aren't here. A good example people have pointed out is when I use "the" in front of a freeway number, which is common in the Southwest. I would say "take the 40 to the 35" but people here put "I-" or "Highway" in front of the numbers. Questions can be taken as greetings there, not questions. My friend can say "what's up" and I can respond "how's it going" and both just mean "hello." Okies usually take offense when they say "how are you" and I respond with a greeting. In that regard, I would say we're less formal. Spanish words also tend to trickle into your vocabulary when you live out there. People are more aggressive in those areas too, especially on the road. The drinking culture (namely bar scene) in Oklahoma was mentioned in another recent thread, in that it isn't that big here. There, bars and clubs have to be creative to survive or people will go elsewhere. You can generally find several pockets in town with heavy concentrations of nightlife. In my experience, people there are more respectful of privacy and personal space than they are here. Social relationships are a bit more lax there too, and people generally don't take offense to insinuated rejections. People here have asked to hang out with me and get upset if I don't jump all over it, even if I have plans or just don't feel like hanging out. Regionally, I think LA has a tremendous cultural impact/influence over the region, whereas (and I could be wrong) Dallas seems to have more cultural influence over OKC.

A HUGE difference I've seen is regarding "outsiders". They are far more welcome and accepted in the Southwest than they are here. That doesn't exactly help me to feel at home, and makes me resist Oklahoma even more. It just snowballs into more. There's also a "make your own family" mentality in the Southwest, where people create close(r) bonds with friends over relatives. Physically, I would add that people tend to take better care of themselves in the Southwest, through diet, exercise, grooming, etc. There's also more emphasis on fiscal conservatism over social. Sure, you'll find social conservatives there, but generally most people don't seem to get so hostile regarding civil liberties. Some state politics would suggest otherwise... but many of those states also have low voter turnout.

Those are just some examples, but there are so many to list. I just don't see Oklahoma as Southwestern in any way, and there are very, very few cultural similarities.

I was born and raised in socal, and moved here eight years ago. I'd never call it 'southwest'. It's its own place. But the thing I always heard was you could tell an outsider with the 'the'. It's a peculiar thing in only some areas to stick in a 'the'. It includes California and apparently Oklahoma. I've never heard anyone here not use a 'the'.

I admit that even if I stay here for a long time, I'm still not going to go 'native'. I do appreciate parts of the things which make OK what it is. I like that people are not in a rush. I grew up in a place where it seemed like everyone but me was in a hurry from getting up to hitting the pillow. I like that most aren't like that here, although some times it can be tooooo long.

I looked into moving to Arizona, and it didn't work out, but that I would call 'southwest'. This state has a few characterists of it, but mostly because there are bordering areas. Arizonan's seem to be more 'live and let live'. Oklahomans don't necessarily get in your face and say 'You aren't like us,' but its still clearly communicated that you are still a foreigner.

Me, I feel like one most places so it doesn't matter. That the world isn't moving at supperspeed matters more. That generally, not really belonging hasn't led to open hostiality. I'm a live and let live type even in California.

My dad grew up in the rather deep south. I remember as a kid visiting his family and checking out the 'black' water fountain and being dissapointed it wasn't soda. He chose to escape from there by getting out in the world. Mom's family were midwestern, Iowan's. I got to know a lot of them who'd come to California since Iowan's stick together, even out of Iowa. If California seems to have a lot of mid western influences, its all those Iowan's and Arkansas escapees who came and stayed and left a midwestern speaking pattern and a way to see the world behind. Most of my friends in school had moved to California from Kansas or Iowa in their grandparents generation.

That midwestern base had been altered by everyone from everywhere wanting to share the sunshine, but I love the culture of socal, just wish it wasn't so crowded and in such a hurry. I think this is true of a lot of us who grew up especially in socal over norcal and have left because what is there now is no longer comfortable.

That we find things to appreciate about Oklahoma doesn't mean we love it all. But I like the nice comfortable pace, and nice people. And the laid back feel of most places is good, and many like me tend not to deal at all with politics. But this does not mean that we embrase local politics, just choose not to share them.

But OK and California have past connections, especially in Southern California, and what had come is sort of a migration in reverse.