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That right there (bolded) is just one of many comments you've made that show quite clearly how superior you feel as a working mother. And you wonder why people are annoyed and frustrated!
PS. If you didn't specify in your location that you live in some long-winded out of the way part of outer space, all of your post would show up on the screen without the need to continually scroll left and right. But never mind, I shan't be reading them any more.
So what if I feel superior as a working mother? It's my life. I would hope I'd see my choices as superior to the choices I decided against. Yes, I think my life is better as a WM. Scratch that, I KNOW it's better as a WM. I know my kids lives are better too. I used to just think they would be but they're getting old enough now that I can see the impact of my choices.
However, it is what it is. I'm not making up what the moms groups were like. These women were like fish out of water and I really don't care to flounder. I'd describe them as disillusioned. Like they expected SAH to be one thing but it turned out to be something else. I knew they weren't happy and that I didn't want to join them. I'm not sure where the happy mommy at home groups are but they weren't the ones I visited.
And my location is my location. 1/3 of the way down the second spiral arm of the milky way galaxy, though that is under debate right now. They're thinking we might actually be in a totally different galaxy that is colliding with the milky way....When they figure this out, I'll change my location. Not sure what your problem is but I don't have to scroll right to see my posts. I'm guessing you have something set wrong on your computer. Try changing your aspect ratio.
THIS is what is LOOKS like to our kids. They see daddy pay the bills and mommy clean the house.
That sure as heck was not what it looked like in this family when I was at home. Because that is not what we did. Many of us have already told you (I think it was you) that while you were not quite creative or self directed enough to use your SAH time productively, does not mean that others of us were likewise unsuccessful.
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I'm fully aware of the basic concept of shared responsibility. I LIVE IT EVERY DAY. I live TRUE shared responsibility. We share it all. We don't divide it up into daddy's parts and mommy's parts. They're all just parent parts.
Sharing responsibility does not need to mean everyone doing *exactly* the same thing. DH just is never going to be as good at managing the finances as I am. I am never going to be as good at grilling. I am never ever going to remember to take care of the cars. He is never ever going to remember to plan meals and make a shopping list. He is never ever going to be self directed enough to plan and execute a home education... The list goes on.
You appear to value the ability to bring in income as somehow paramount. But many families don't value that, in particular, beyond that it allows keeping body and soul together. You assume that income equivalence is the only route to gender equality. And it just aint so. There are many models of equal that don't mean "same".
My earlier post is just to show that there are two side to every coin. Both have advantages and disadvantages--you have to do for your family what is right for your family, either by working outside the home or not.
Dad as bread winner and mom as home maker are traditional gender roles. It's a division of labor. Men work and women keep the houses they pay for. In contrast, my husband and I present a unified front. Both of us support the household, care for the kids and clean house. I do admit he cooks and I don't but that's because he's a better cook and pickier about what he eats. Other than that, either parent does anything. It should come as no surprise that my kids would see us as more equal than they would if we'd taken traditional gender roles.
LMAO @ this post. My children never viewed me as not equal to their father.
It's sort of sad that you view ALL modern day SAHMs as having traditional gender roles. Traditional roles aren't dicated by employment alone.
Out of all of my sisters, only ONE has a traditional gender role. She's the one that's a working mother and her husband calls ALL the shots even though she earns more than him. The rest of us who are/have been SAHMs carry much more clout in our marriages.
I manage the finances. I make the decisions. I wear the pants in this house. Yeah, we share in decisions, but I truly have the last word on almost every single issue that matters. Thankfully my husband likes it that way so we've never been at odds. I'm sure I wouldn't have married him otherwise.
House and yard work are equally divided here, regardless of who is working or not. I'm not a maid. I've put plenty of my own money into this joint partnership. And, since hubby is older, I'll be the provider and he'll be staying home when he retires.
That sure as heck was not what it looked like in this family when I was at home. Because that is not what we did. Many of us have already told you (I think it was you) that while you were not quite creative or self directed enough to use your SAH time productively, does not mean that others of us were likewise unsuccessful.
Sharing responsibility does not need to mean everyone doing *exactly* the same thing. DH just is never going to be as good at managing the finances as I am. I am never going to be as good at grilling. I am never ever going to remember to take care of the cars. He is never ever going to remember to plan meals and make a shopping list. He is never ever going to be self directed enough to plan and execute a home education... The list goes on.
You appear to value the ability to bring in income as somehow paramount. But many families don't value that, in particular, beyond that it allows keeping body and soul together. You assume that income equivalence is the only route to gender equality. And it just aint so. There are many models of equal that don't mean "same".
Children don't see mommy doing one thing and daddy doing another as sharing responsibility. They see a division of labor. Daddy works, mommy doesn't. Mommy does most of the child care, daddy does little. To them, working for a living looks like a daddy thing to do and caring for children looks like a mommy thing to do. Even I don't see this as a sharing responsibility. How much of the wage earning do you "share" with your dh". How much of the child care does he "share" with you. I see it as dividing things up along traditional gender roles and it's, inherently, unequal. Do you really think your kids don't see it that way?
Actually, I value equality not income but income has it's perks. If that means I earn an income, then I earn an income. I want to show my kids that both daddies and mommies work to support their kids, that both daddies and mommies care for kids, the house, etc, etc, etc... Yes, the income benefits my family and, by itself, would be enough to make working the right decision but that wasn't the deciding factor. It was what I'd be modeling for my children.
What I don't get is the defense here. If SAH is so great, who cares if a WM thinks that it's great that studies show that her dd's will have more of a tendency to be self confident, to set higher goals and view themselves as more equal to men (this is the studies talking not me here so you can drop that I'm making this claim)? I would think that SAH was chosen for what it gives her kids. Why would she care what WOH gives mine? Does my choice being a good one make hers a lesser choice?
The truth is, our working status is pretty much irrelevent once you discount the financial impact of the choice. (I've never seen a magnitude put on our children's attitudes so we really don't know if this is just a minor tendency or a significant push towards higher self confidence, setting higher goals and viewing women as more eaual. We just know it's significant enough to be picked up on a study.) I'm starting to think that some HAVE TO think SAH is better than WOH in order for it to be a worthwhile choice. We have a choice in this matter because it really doesn't matter which we choose. Our kids do fine either way. Yes, my kids will see a different role modeled than the kids of a SAHM but I'd think she'd be ok with that given she chose that role. I'm ok with what mine models for my kids. I chose to model what I value.
With that, I'm signing off until, probably, the weekend. I'd like to stay and play (this is actually one of my favorite things to debate) but I have work to do. I'll check in later in the week and see if there's any reason I need to post. So I leave this to the WM supporters....for now...
LMAO @ this post. My children never viewed me as not equal to their father.
It's sort of sad that you view ALL modern day SAHMs as having traditional gender roles. Traditional roles aren't dicated by employment alone.
Out of all of my sisters, only ONE has a traditional gender role. She's the one that's a working mother and her husband calls ALL the shots even though she earns more than him. The rest of us who are/have been SAHMs carry much more clout in our marriages.
I manage the finances. I make the decisions. I wear the pants in this house. Yeah, we share in decisions, but I truly have the last word on almost every single issue that matters. Thankfully my husband likes it that way so we've never been at odds. I'm sure I wouldn't have married him otherwise.
House and yard work are equally divided here, regardless of who is working or not. I'm not a maid. I've put plenty of my own money into this joint partnership. And, since hubby is older, I'll be the provider and he'll be staying home when he retires.
That's not what the research says and it's illogical if you think about it. It's inherently unequal to have one person earning all the income and the other dependent on him to eat and have a roof over her head. You can argue all you want about the importance of cleaning the floors but they pale next to he pays the bills and puts a roof over all of your heads. There'd be no floors to clean without him. So, no, your roles are not equal. You may feel you are equal but your kids see a division along gender lines. It should come as no surprise that children raised this way see women as more limited in what they can do.
Sorry but those are not studies. Most of those are articles written for the layperson, which is fine, but they do not have the same weight as a peer reviewed scientific study in which you can review the statistical analysis and sampling methods.
Additionally, some of those are actually blogs and not even held to the standard of objective journalism.
Now I have absolutely seen studies linking asthma and increased ear infections to WM as opposed to SAHMs. But I do not have time to find them now, I will post later.
But there is no large scale study I have seen (and I have been looking quite a bit that lately) that measurable shows that children "turn out" by whatever measurable quality you use (aside from the two I mentioned above) of one group of mothers than the other.
The attitudes study Ivory repeatedly mentioned is one study using adult or subadult sons and daughters of WM and SAHM. It was not a particularly large study and it was very narrow in its focus. All it found was that both sons and daughters had statistically higher notions of equality between the sexes when their mothers work. That does not remotely mean that it is not possible and even likely that mothers who are very careful to show and teach gender equality can't.
That being said, the take home point of that study for me was that we need to not assume children pick things up without it being discussed. It seems like that is not the case here, since all the moms are careful to both model and discuss gender and gender roles. Not really surprising when you consider the moms on this board are invested enough in the parenting process to find an online board to discuss things like that. Many of both groups just wouldnt bother.
Also, as an aside, the choices we make, education level, income, etc all have huge effects on our children. The single largest factor predicting education level and income level for sons is the income level of dads. I do not think it is relevant to what we are discussing at hand but rather just an interesting tidbit. Whats really weird is it has almost no effect on daughters income level.
Children don't see mommy doing one thing and daddy doing another as sharing responsibility. They see a division of labor. Daddy works, mommy doesn't. Mommy does most of the child care, daddy does little. To them, working for a living looks like a daddy thing to do and caring for children looks like a mommy thing to do. Even I don't see this as a sharing responsibility. How much of the wage earning do you "share" with your dh". How much of the child care does he "share" with you. I see it as dividing things up along traditional gender roles and it's, inherently, unequal. Do you really think your kids don't see it that way?
Actually, I value equality not income but income has it's perks. If that means I earn an income, then I earn an income. I want to show my kids that both daddies and mommies work to support their kids, that both daddies and mommies care for kids, the house, etc, etc, etc... Yes, the income benefits my family and, by itself, would be enough to make working the right decision but that wasn't the deciding factor. It was what I'd be modeling for my children.
What I don't get is the defense here. If SAH is so great, who cares if a WM thinks that it's great that studies show that her dd's will have more of a tendency to be self confident, to set higher goals and view themselves as more equal to men (this is the studies talking not me here so you can drop that I'm making this claim)? I would think that SAH was chosen for what it gives her kids. Why would she care what WOH gives mine? Does my choice being a good one make hers a lesser choice?
The truth is, our working status is pretty much irrelevent once you discount the financial impact of the choice. (I've never seen a magnitude put on our children's attitudes so we really don't know if this is just a minor tendency or a significant push towards higher self confidence, setting higher goals and viewing women as more eaual. We just know it's significant enough to be picked up on a study.) I'm starting to think that some HAVE TO think SAH is better than WOH in order for it to be a worthwhile choice. We have a choice in this matter because it really doesn't matter which we choose. Our kids do fine either way. Yes, my kids will see a different role modeled than the kids of a SAHM but I'd think she'd be ok with that given she chose that role. I'm ok with what mine models for my kids. I chose to model what I value.
With that, I'm signing off until, probably, the weekend. I'd like to stay and play (this is actually one of my favorite things to debate) but I have work to do. I'll check in later in the week and see if there's any reason I need to post. So I leave this to the WM supporters....for now...
I guess if you cannot respond to any points and just reassert the same disputable "facts" there is not much more to say to you. Cheers.
Hopefully I did some good to those who might be reading this post thinlking OMG am I *REALLY* failing my daughters in this way?
Children don't see mommy doing one thing and daddy doing another as sharing responsibility. They see a division of labor. Daddy works, mommy doesn't. Mommy does most of the child care, daddy does little. To them, working for a living looks like a daddy thing to do and caring for children looks like a mommy thing to do. Even I don't see this as a sharing responsibility. How much of the wage earning do you "share" with your dh". How much of the child care does he "share" with you. I see it as dividing things up along traditional gender roles and it's, inherently, unequal. Do you really think your kids don't see it that way?
Actually, I value equality not income but income has it's perks. If that means I earn an income, then I earn an income. I want to show my kids that both daddies and mommies work to support their kids, that both daddies and mommies care for kids, the house, etc, etc, etc... Yes, the income benefits my family and, by itself, would be enough to make working the right decision but that wasn't the deciding factor. It was what I'd be modeling for my children.
What I don't get is the defense here. If SAH is so great, who cares if a WM thinks that it's great that studies show that her dd's will have more of a tendency to be self confident, to set higher goals and view themselves as more equal to men (this is the studies talking not me here so you can drop that I'm making this claim)? I would think that SAH was chosen for what it gives her kids. Why would she care what WOH gives mine? Does my choice being a good one make hers a lesser choice?
Well, see, here's the problem. You're mistaking "irritated" with "defensive". Nobody likes hearing their lives labeled as unimportant and their choices dismissed, whether they think the person doing so is a worthy debate opponent... or a complete dillweed.
Let me draw a comparison for you:
If a homeschooler comes on the boards and says "I homeschool my kids. Studies show that homeschooled kids are more confident, do better on XY and Z, have lower rates of teen sex and drug use, and have rainbow unicorns who fart dollar bills in their back yards. People who send their kids to public school are more likely to be undereducated, negligent parents and have bad teeth", you jump right in there howling and bellowing in defense of public schools. Surely anyone who chose to delegate the education of her child to strangers would be secure enough in her choice not to do that. Why should she care what homeschooling gives another family? If public school is so great, who cares? After all, I would think that it was chosen for what it gives her kids.
Merely a reframe, of course.
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