Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't see where but, since that topic is closed, it doesn't matter. Back to the topic on hand. Does time matter? Which is really asking if SAHM's having more time than WM's matters. Research says our kids don't turn out differently based on maternal working status so the answer is no.
We all know, logically, that we need enough time and we all know, logically that we can have too much time. Apparently, the range where you have enough time is big enough to hold both the working moms and the stay at home moms. So, whether you work or not is just a personal preference looking at only time spent with kids.
Time studies are interesting. There really isn't a big difference in the time that SAHM's and WM's spend with their children. Not enough to matter anyway.
Hopefully this will help get through on this one with you. Way back a few years ago the attitude in much of the nation was that blacks were not smart enough. In the 40s when the discussion to allow blacks to fly planes a congressman showed a study why blacks did not have the smarts to fly airplanes. Other studies "showed" that also and people bought it. I am sure somewhere out there others studies showed the contrary. What did it take for them to fly? Someone that simply was fair and did like to see the people and mingle with people, where the rubber meets the road. Who was that Eleonor Roosevelt. She is the one that said to the Army brass she expected blacks to go to school in her own way. Has she done what you are doing and someone showed her all the studies blacks may not had the chance to fly. Remember the Tuskeege Airman story? They ended up being such great fliers that no bomber was lost in WWII that was protected by them.
How about studies that "showed" that women were not suitable for other jobs outside the home?
The same can be said about Mexican or orientals in the past.
Studies can be used but we need to compare them with other studies, go out there where the rubber meet the road and see how much validity they have. Many of those studies the people doing them go out there, ask questions, go back to their nice offices and come with conclusions. Many of them do not deal with the everyday life social issues.
Today? There are many like you that have and agenda and all they see when a topic like this one is discussed as a "WM vs SAHM".
In all fairness, there are many that have the SAHM vs VM" agenda and see what studies "show" how bad it is for working moms.
You see you go out there. Well, you do not reflect that. Do you do volunteer work with social organizations like Women shelters, CASA, Child Protective Services, police departments, police department sections that deal with children that have been neglected in some form, kids that get involved with drugs, etc.
REALLY go out there and get involved with these type of organizations and ask them question and you will see a pattern of neglect from single parents, working parents, SAHMs, rich, poor, etc. Time given to kids does have a relevance on their upbringing.
There are WM moms that may decide to move with mom and dad to make sure the child have a father figure with grandpa like my neighborh across the street from us. Others resort to organization like Big Brother Big sister. Why does such organization has such success. Look at their mission. They want to make sure children do have a mentor, positive figure that can spend time with them. Do you know there have been children that have requested a mentor from this type of organization because mom, dad, or both are not present in their lives that much? Why do many kids get into drugs? How is it that many young girls get pregnant so much? In many cases it is because not parenting is done and not much time is spent with them at home and this is done by all type of parents, not just WMs.
Even when a parent does try to take some measures to help their children, children may see the action the wrong way. I will give you an example:
When I was stationed in Korea my training sergeant and her husband requested to get stationed together. They left their children with her mom. She kept getting calls from her mom that she needed to go and visit because she was having a hard time with the 13 year old daughter. On one ocassion she went to my office crying and asking for advice on what to do with her daughter because she was having sex with a 40 year old. I told her that many children at that age need the close parenting and that takes time. Right now she was not getting that with both her parents on the other side of the world. For all I know the child may feel abandoned by her parents. She replied she loves her daughter. I told her I had not doubt of her love. I told her the child may not see it that way. To her it is possible she thinks mom and dad saw it more important to be together in Korea than with their child, at least one of the parents. She could see the parents sacrificed their company for the sake of the child be with a parent.
I told her she and her husband may have to reconsider their Army career, sit down and see who may be best to get out of the service to be together with their children. In the end I told her all the Army medals, certificates of achievements, etc. on the wall will mean nothing when you are done. What will mean a lot more is the children as adults.
The left Korea and later I also went back home. About 5 years later I got a letter from her. She thank me so much for the advice I gave her. She decided to get out of the Army and get a job while her husband still served but made sure someone take care of the children. She said it made a world of difference and her children are very happy now and does she. The girl is no longe with any type of drug or sex problem. The sergeant was a very religious person and so her husband but they were missing the importance of spending time with their children.
I can go on with other examples but I will leave it at that because unfortanetlly you will come back still responding about WM vs SAHM issue and ignore the rest of anything I and others may say. I would be glad to cite other example, maybe later. Take care.
On the question of whether time matters, which does not necessarily have to do with whether we work or stay at home, it seems that a few studies have found that for *skilled* mothers, children do better cognitively when they are parented intensively.
Hopefully this will help get through on this one with you. Way back a few years ago the attitude in much of the nation was that blacks were not smart enough. In the 40s when the discussion to allow blacks to fly planes a congressman showed a study why blacks did not have the smarts to fly airplanes. Other studies "showed" that also and people bought it. I am sure somewhere out there others studies showed the contrary. What did it take for them to fly? Someone that simply was fair and did like to see the people and mingle with people, where the rubber meets the road. Who was that Eleonor Roosevelt. She is the one that said to the Army brass she expected blacks to go to school in her own way. Has she done what you are doing and someone showed her all the studies blacks may not had the chance to fly. Remember the Tuskeege Airman story? They ended up being such great fliers that no bomber was lost in WWII that was protected by them.
How about studies that "showed" that women were not suitable for other jobs outside the home?
The same can be said about Mexican or orientals in the past.
Studies can be used but we need to compare them with other studies, go out there where the rubber meet the road and see how much validity they have. Many of those studies the people doing them go out there, ask questions, go back to their nice offices and come with conclusions. Many of them do not deal with the everyday life social issues.
Today? There are many like you that have and agenda and all they see when a topic like this one is discussed as a "WM vs SAHM".
In all fairness, there are many that have the SAHM vs VM" agenda and see what studies "show" how bad it is for working moms.
You see you go out there. Well, you do not reflect that. Do you do volunteer work with social organizations like Women shelters, CASA, Child Protective Services, police departments, police department sections that deal with children that have been neglected in some form, kids that get involved with drugs, etc.
REALLY go out there and get involved with these type of organizations and ask them question and you will see a pattern of neglect from single parents, working parents, SAHMs, rich, poor, etc. Time given to kids does have a relevance on their upbringing.
There are WM moms that may decide to move with mom and dad to make sure the child have a father figure with grandpa like my neighborh across the street from us. Others resort to organization like Big Brother Big sister. Why does such organization has such success. Look at their mission. They want to make sure children do have a mentor, positive figure that can spend time with them. Do you know there have been children that have requested a mentor from this type of organization because mom, dad, or both are not present in their lives that much? Why do many kids get into drugs? How is it that many young girls get pregnant so much? In many cases it is because not parenting is done and not much time is spent with them at home and this is done by all type of parents, not just WMs.
Even when a parent does try to take some measures to help their children, children may see the action the wrong way. I will give you an example:
When I was stationed in Korea my training sergeant and her husband requested to get stationed together. They left their children with her mom. She kept getting calls from her mom that she needed to go and visit because she was having a hard time with the 13 year old daughter. On one ocassion she went to my office crying and asking for advice on what to do with her daughter because she was having sex with a 40 year old. I told her that many children at that age need the close parenting and that takes time. Right now she was not getting that with both her parents on the other side of the world. For all I know the child may feel abandoned by her parents. She replied she loves her daughter. I told her I had not doubt of her love. I told her the child may not see it that way. To her it is possible she thinks mom and dad saw it more important to be together in Korea than with their child, at least one of the parents. She could see the parents sacrificed their company for the sake of the child be with a parent.
I told her she and her husband may have to reconsider their Army career, sit down and see who may be best to get out of the service to be together with their children. In the end I told her all the Army medals, certificates of achievements, etc. on the wall will mean nothing when you are done. What will mean a lot more is the children as adults.
The left Korea and later I also went back home. About 5 years later I got a letter from her. She thank me so much for the advice I gave her. She decided to get out of the Army and get a job while her husband still served but made sure someone take care of the children. She said it made a world of difference and her children are very happy now and does she. The girl is no longe with any type of drug or sex problem. The sergeant was a very religious person and so her husband but they were missing the importance of spending time with their children.
I can go on with other examples but I will leave it at that because unfortanetlly you will come back still responding about WM vs SAHM issue and ignore the rest of anything I and others may say. I would be glad to cite other example, maybe later. Take care.
This is why you need peer reviewed studies from reputable sources. There are plenty of right wing organizations that have run their own studies trying to say women belong at home, not because they think it's best for kids but because they want women out of men's way. And you have "researchers" like Belsky who run off with undigested data and start making outlanish claims. Who does a study is important. However, the amount of studies that have been done on parenting time do conclude that working/not working is not an issue for our kids. Given the rediculous number of studies, they'd have found differences by now if there were any.
What purpose to extreme examples of parents on the other side of the world from their kids serve in this debate? We're all aware that if we move out and leave our kids behind, they're, probably, going to suffer for that. My stance is, and has been, that as long as you have enough time with your kids, they'll be ok even if you don't give them more. Once you have enough more is just more. Neither needed or not needed. Unless, of course, you have too much, then it's not needed.
A discussion of parenting time is, inherently, a discussion of WM's vs. SAHM's because working takes time away from home. However, as studies like the one I posted the article about show, there is little actual difference between time spent with kids in the two camps. Other time studies show that, when compared, SAHM's spend more time socializing, on hobbies, on housework (not because there is more but because their dh's do less) and sleeping than do WM's. We find time for our kids. What matters is having enough time. Your example of the couple stationed around the world is an example of a couple who did not have enough time to parent. That's bad. Too much time would be as well. I've met many a parent who is joined at the hip to their children. Sometimes I want to tell mom "Cut the umbilical cord already". Too little time or too much time are not desirable. Enough time is.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-17-2011 at 03:43 PM..
However, as studies like the one I posted the article about show, there is little actual difference between time spent with kids in the two camps.
The article you posted does not say that there is little actual difference between time spent.
Let's do a little more analysis.
The difference over 18 years is around 100 days (see my previous post). Since most of that time difference can be accounted for in the first 5 years of life the difference equates to 100 days over 5 years. That's HUGE difference. It is not insignificant. NOT.
The article you posted does not say that there is little actual difference between time spent.
Let's do a little more analysis.
The difference over 18 years is around 100 days (see my previous post). Since most of that time difference can be accounted for in the first 5 years of life the difference equates to 100 days over 5 years. That's HUGE difference. It is not insignificant. NOT.
Half of the difference occurs in the first 5 years and it's not really signficant...at least not enough to actually make a difference. Yes, 50 days....out of 1825...or 2.7% of total time. Most of us lose more time than that watching TV...or posting on internet boards...
What is important is that we have enough time to bond with our children and they have enough time to bond with us. This does not require every single available minute every single day!!!
If you think this time is so significant, can you show how it impacts our kids? When you compare the kids of SHAM's to the kids of WM's what are the differences one will expect to see because the WM's spent 41.4 minutes per day less with their kids during the preschool years (If you do the math, you come up with 41.4 minutes difference during the preschool years)? If this time made a difference, studies would be finding differences in our kids. They aren't. From this we can conclude that whatever the differences in time are, they do not matter. Which is why I say it's insignificant. This amount of time isn't making a difference.
Seriously, the only way I see my decision to work part time after dd#2 was born impacting my kids is that they had a mother selfish enough to work part time when she could have been working full time. I denied my family over $100K in income to work part time for 3 1/2 years. That doesn't speak well of me and it's not something I'm proud of. Looking back, that now looks like a college education paid for...
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-17-2011 at 04:23 PM..
Ivory, do you put any credence at all in people's personal stories and experiences or are studies and statistics all you care about?
Personal experience is seen through rose colored glasses that have blinders on the sides. You have to set it aside. What's great about studies is that they don't have rose colored glasses. They just look at things as they are. People see what they want to see and, studies show, think they are somehow NOT the ones the studies are talking about yet, the vast majority of us live someone within two standard deviations of average.
Seriously, I was convinced that I wasn't average in the time spent with kids department because I had such a flexible job, never worked more than 42 hours a week, and so much holiday and vacation time. I was SURE I'd prove I spent more time with my kids when I did the math. Guess what? I'm absolutely flat average both in work hours and day care use. When I backed into the calculations I came up with a 43 minute a day difference if I were to SAH instead of work during the preschool years when the study said it would be 41 minutes per day.
It's human nature to see what you want to see and not see what you don't want to see. I once knew a mom who used to gush about how well behaved my kids were and how she could tell I stayed home with them. I let this go on for some time (our kids were in preschool together and I flexed my work hours to handle preschool drop off and pick up so she did not realize I worked) and then, after a few weeks, I revealed I was an engineer and a working mom. After that, my children seemed to develop behavior problems, according to her... People see what they want to see. That's why you need studies. So you can find the truth. When her view of my children changed, so did what she saw when she watched them play. This is a very human response.
I believe the time studies because I've done the math in my own life and I know the value of actual studies with large enough sample sizes. Individuals see what they want to see. It's not an unbiased opinoin. Studies, once peer reviewed and digested are unbiased. I'm very glad they say that our kids don't turn out differently because of the differences in how we spend our time but I'd work even if they didn't say that because there are real benefits to my family that come from my working. There'd have to be some serious differences in how kids are turning out based on moms time spent working for me to rethink this one.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-17-2011 at 04:40 PM..
If this time made a difference, studies would be finding differences in our kids. They aren't. From this we can conclude that whatever the differences in time are, they do not matter. Which is why I say it's insignificant.
You missed your calling, Ivory. You should have been a litigator.
Seriously, the only way I see my decision to work part time after dd#2 was born impacting my kids is that they had a mother selfish enough to work part time when she could have been working full time. I denied my family over $100K in income to work part time for 3 1/2 years. That doesn't speak well of me and it's not something I'm proud of. Looking back, that now looks like a college education paid for...
O.M.G. I feel sorry for your kids.
ETA why did it take you 2.5 years to figure that out?
You missed your calling, Ivory. You should have been a litigator.
Yes, gosh, and being a lawyer could have bumped her up to the next SES
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We're all aware that if we move out and leave our kids behind, they're, probably, going to suffer for that. 
My stance is, and has been, that as long as you have enough time with your kids, they'll be ok even if you don't give them more. Once you have enough more is just more. Neither needed or not needed. Unless, of course, you have too much, then it's not needed.
