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I think you are way off in this post. And not at all understanding.
MrsFrank has just had a miscarriage, that is a huge element you are ognoring.
I'm not ignoring it. SHE is ignoring the impact her decision has on the four children she has. Adveristy does not build character. It only reveals it. Her character is being revealed. Her concern is only for herself and what she wants. She doesn't even care about the four children she has or her husband. She's willing to throw away her marriage and destroy her children's home because he said no to a 5th child when doing so won't even get her the 5th child she wants!!!! This is nothing but emotional blackmail. Seriously, this woman needs counseling and to learn how to concentrate on the children she has and to quit using emotional black mail on her husband.
I understand that her hormones may not have settled down yet but that doesn't excuse this. It's just reason for her to see a doctor. In fact, if that is the root cause of her irrational behavior and, COMPLETE, failure to consider the four children she has, that's reason for her never to get pregnant again. If you're going to blame this on her being post partum, then she's ,simply, not rational after a pregnancy!!! It's time to shut down the baby making factory on so many levels here.
I'm not ignoring it. SHE is ignoring the impact her decision has on the four children she has. Adveristy does not build character. It only reveals it. Her character is being revealed. Her concern is only for herself and what she wants. She doesn't even care about the four children she has or her husband. She's willing to throw away her marriage and destroy her children's home because he said no to a 5th child when doing so won't even get her the 5th child she wants!!!! This is nothing but emotional blackmail. Seriously, this woman needs counseling and to learn how to concentrate on the children she has and to quit using emotional black mail on her husband.
I understand that her hormones may not have settled down yet but that doesn't excuse this. It's just reason for her to see a doctor. In fact, if that is the root cause of her irrational behavior and, COMPLETE, failure to consider the four children she has, that's reason for her never to get pregnant again. If you're going to blame this on her being post partum, then she's ,simply, not rational after a pregnancy!!! It's time to shut down the baby making factory on so many levels here.
You are still mising what I believe is the crux of the matter. She is not just post-partum. I would not be at all usrprised if she was either suffering from post-partum depression, or grief. All of these extreme suggestions are brutal if she is indeed altered.
You are still mising what I believe is the crux of the matter. She is not just post-partum. I would not be at all usrprised if she was either suffering from post-partum depression, or grief. All of these extreme suggestions are brutal if she is indeed altered.
No. She needs counseling and the last thing this family needs is another baby. She isn't even considering the four children she has. What happens to them is collateral damage as far as she's concerned. She's using the harm she will do them by destroying their family as a means to emotionally blackmail her husband.
I understand grief. I understand being post patrum. This is cold, calculating and cruel. If you told me she was crying all day or unable to care for her kids, I'd believe it was grief or her being post partum. This woman is manitpulative and subjecting her husband to emotional blackmail. And don't forget all those "accidents" she's already had. My thoughts are she's been manipulating the situation to her liking all along. For some reason, she just wants his approval this time... Perhaps she fears he'll have that vasectomy before she can have her next "accident".
And IF this is what happens when she's post partum, that's even more reason to shut down the baby making factory. He needs to stand his ground and refuse to have a 5th child. She needs serious help. Lord help the kids caught in the middle here. With the way she's behaving, I think they might be better off if he kicked her out and kept the kids. At least he wants the four he has. She doesn't care what happens to them. They're just pawns in a game to get her what she wants.
My guess is there is something about pregnancy that this woman finds empowering (hence her three "accidents"). Now her dh is, seriously, considering preventing any more accidents. She's running out of time to have accidents. So she has to up the ante. Get him to agree to the next one. Her game is clear. Whether it's root cause is the miscarrage and grief or not, the baby making factory needs to shut down here and she needs a psychiatrist.
No. She needs counseling and the last thing this family needs is another baby. She isn't even considering the four children she has. What happens to them is collateral damage as far as she's concerned. She's using the harm she will do them by destroying their family as a means to emotionally blackmail her husband.
I understand grief. I understand being post patrum. This is cold, calculating and cruel. If you told me she was crying all day or unable to care for her kids, I'd believe it was grief or her being post partum. This woman is manitpulative and subjecting her husband to emotional blackmail. And don't forget all those "accidents" she's already had. My thoughts are she's been manipulating the situation to her liking all along. For some reason, she just wants his approval this time... Perhaps she fears he'll have that vasectomy before she can have her next "accident".
And IF this is what happens when she's post partum, that's even more reason to shut down the baby making factory. He needs to stand his ground and refuse to have a 5th child. She needs serious help. Lord help the kids caught in the middle here. With the way she's behaving, I think they might be better off if he kicked her out and kept the kids. At least he wants the four he has. She doesn't care what happens to them. They're just pawns in a game to get her what she wants.
My guess is there is something about pregnancy that this woman finds empowering (hence her three "accidents"). Now her dh is, seriously, considering preventing any more accidents. She's running out of time to have accidents. So she has to up the ante. Get him to agree to the next one. Her game is clear. Whether it's root cause is the miscarrage and grief or not, the baby making factory needs to shut down here and she needs a psychiatrist.
Grief and depression take more forms than crying all day everyday - some of the symptoms/thought processes don't make a lot of "sense" to the people observing IRL, let alone to internet armchair psychologists. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the wife, when we have no way of knowing what her motivations are and although I see the logical path you are following, there is no way to know if your interpretation or one of a hundred others is correct. If the husband acts on your bluff calling advice and what you think is going on is inaccurate, he could do great harm and make a difficult situation worse. Where I do agree with you is that she does need counseling (which the OP is working on) and that having a fifth child right now is not a good idea.
Grief and depression take more forms than crying all day everyday - some of the symptoms/thought processes don't make a lot of "sense" to the people observing IRL, let alone to internet armchair psychologists. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the wife, when we have no way of knowing what her motivations are and although I see the logical path you are following, there is no way to know if your interpretation or one of a hundred others is correct. If the husband acts on your bluff calling advice and what you think is going on is inaccurate, he could do great harm and make a difficult situation worse. Where I do agree with you is that she does need counseling (which the OP is working on) and that having a fifth child right now is not a good idea.
Any way you slice and dice this, it SCREAMS DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER BABY WITH THIS WOMAN!!!
Yes, I am making assumptions about the wife. We're talking about a woman who has had 3 "accidental" pregnancies. I think she knows how this works by now. And now that she lost one, she's delivering ultimatims because her husband doesn't want another "accident". She has zero concern for the four children she has (I don't care why, that's just how it is). Her three "accidents" tell me she's been manipulating this situation all along. The stress of the miscarriage simply brought her manipulative behavior to the forefront. As I said, adversity doesn't create character, it only reveals it. What is her response to being told no? To try and manipulate the situation to her liking by any means possible no matter who it hurts including the four children she already has.
I really don't care why she's doing this. What matters is that she is doing this and it screams DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER BABY WITH HER. Either she's unstable because of grief and hormone issues or she's just manipulative. Either way, they response should be to say no to another child. The last thing this family needs is a new baby.
Paul needs to have a vasectomy yesterday to make sure there are no more "accidents" because I predict if she manages to talk him out of the vasectomy, there will be another "accident" and perhaps a few more. She's already had three....Sorry, one is an accident...two looks suspicious...but three?? She knows what she's doing. Yes this may be a response to grief but what it's doing is revealing the manipulation she's been practicing for years. She thought she had the 5th child she wanted and it was taken away. Now she's demanding he give her a 5th child. If I were her dh, I'd be giving her an ultimatim. Get into psychiatric treatment or get out. What kind of message are her four children hearing when they hear that mommy wants to destroy their family because she wants, NOT THEM, but another child???? Seriously, the four children here need to be taken out of harms way one way or the other.
I really don't care why she's subjecting her husband to emotional blackmail and has no concern for the four children she has. I'm concerned for the damage that is being done to those four children because of her manipulative behavior. THAT needs to stop NOW. She needs a psychiatrist and her children need to be protected from her manipulative behavior.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-26-2012 at 08:02 AM..
Any way you slice and dice this, it SCREAMS DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER BABY WITH THIS WOMAN!!!
Yes, I am making assumptions about the wife. We're talking about a woman who has had 3 "accidental" pregnancies. I think she knows how this works by now. And now that she lost one, she's delivering ultimatims because her husband doesn't want another "accident". She has zero concern for the four children she has (I don't care why, that's just how it is). Her three "accidents" tell me she's been manipulating this situation all along. The stress of the miscarriage simply brought her manipulative behavior to the forefront. As I said, adversity doesn't create character, it only reveals it. What is her response to being told no? To try and manipulate the situation to her liking by any means possible no matter who it hurts including the four children she already has.
I really don't care why she's doing this. What matters is that she is doing this and it screams DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER BABY WITH HER. Either she's unstable because of grief and hormone issues or she's just manipulative. Either way, they response should be to say no to another child. The last thing this family needs is a new baby.
Paul needs to have a vasectomy yesterday to make sure there are no more "accidents" because I predict if she manages to talk him out of the vasectomy, there will be another "accident" and perhaps a few more. She's already had three....Sorry, one is an accident...maybe two...but three?? She knows what she's doing.
You don't need to care why she's doing this, but the OP does. I agree another baby right now is not a good idea. That can be communicated without spinning theories of motivation about a woman we know nothing about but second-hand information. I understand you think you are right; I think there are many more interpretations than what you have come up with and it will be the therapist's job to suss out this information, not ours.
You don't need to care why she's doing this, but the OP does. I agree another baby right now is not a good idea. That can be communicated without spinning theories of motivation about a woman we know nothing about but second-hand information. I understand you think you are right; I think there are many more interpretations than what you have come up with and it will be the therapist's job to suss out this information, not ours.
It's pretty obvious that she manipulates situations to her liking. When people respond to situations like this, they reveal their true character. She's just revealing what she's done all along (All those "accidents"). The miscarriage didn't change who she is. It just brought it to the surface.
However, any way you slice this, the answer is NO to a 5th baby. It's NO because of the way she's acting and it's NO because he doesn't want one. After all this, it will be years before it would be safe for him to consider a 5th child with her. Who knows how she'd react after that baby was born. Even if she leaves, he has to stand his ground and say no to another baby. This is not a healthy situation and it's going to take years of therapy to turn it into one IF it can be.
She needs psychiatric treatment and they need marriage counseling. Another baby is the last thing they need.
It's pretty obvious that she manipulates situations to her liking. When people respond to situations like this, they reveal their true character. She's just revealing what she's done all along (All those "accidents"). The miscarriage didn't change who she is. It just brought it to the surface
In your opinion. Your posts make it apparent that you do not have mental health training or perhaps even experience with someone struggling with mental health issues. You're assuming patterns of behavior based on limited information and jumping to conclusions without all of the facts. If you are wrong and the OP acts on your advice, your well-intentioned feedback could backfire. ETA: No one here is saying bringing another child into the mix is a good idea.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 02-26-2012 at 08:28 AM..
So I take this and process it. I think what did I do wrong, how can we make this better. Should I just give in and agree to another child (seems like we'd all be happy then), even if I FEEL INSIDE a deep desire to NOT have any more. I really try to get to this place where I just suck it up and just say "Ok fine", but I just can't do it.
I'm trying to focus on what she's saying in between what she's saying. If you know what I'm saying .
I keep going back to the belief that our family and what we DO have if far greater and more important than one more child and I keep going back to pushing that FACT in hopes she'll see that FACT. I'm also trying to support positive changes and a new direction for our marriage if we do get past this. Showing willingness to work on improving the things that have fallen off or need to change. All this is where I want the mediation, the processing of emotions and logic (for both of us, not just her).
Sounds like you've really been thinking about all of this. Good for you.
One of the things I was trying to get you to do was think about how controlling you may have been in your marriage. (Because the first time I read your post I was a little put-off by some of the unilateral decisions you seemed to have made.)
In a marriage decisions should be made as a team.
I can't tell you whether or not to have another child but I can tell you what I would do in your position.
First have your wife seen by a GOOD OB/Gyn. Make sure nothing is wrong physically. Hormones do go out of whack. Explore treatment options if recommended. Including seeing someone if she's depressed. A good OB/Gyn has seen this 1,000 times before and will know what needs to be done. Enlist a relative she trusts to get her there if she balks.
Second marriage counseling. And if the counselor tells you that you have been responsible for some of your wife's problems.... LISTEN. (I should add I don't think marriage counseling will do a lick of good until she gets the first part done. First stop, IMO is the OB/Gyn. You need to find the root cause of things.)
A decision on having another child SHOULD NOT be made now. No way, no how. If you both want this marriage to work, the repair work needs to be done first. I have an idea she is carrying a WHOLE lot of hurt inside her for a variety of reasons. She needs to be healed physically and mentally (and emotionally) before any more babies are made. So do you, for that matter. (Which means you can go to counseling on your own.)
Take care of your other kids too. All of this is affecting them. I imagine they have a whole lot of pain in their lives right now. Are you arguing in front of them? Stop. Make sure they are protected from all the drama going on between you and your wife right now. They need to know this isn't their fault. Because that's what they are going to think.
Best I've got. Good luck. Make sure your kids aren't in the center of all this.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 02-26-2012 at 10:23 AM..
In your opinion. Your posts make it apparent that you do not have mental health training or perhaps even experience with someone struggling with mental health issues. You're assuming patterns of behavior based on limited information and jumping to conclusions without all of the facts. If you are wrong and the OP acts on your advice, your well-intentioned feedback could backfire. ETA: No one here is saying bringing another child into the mix is a good idea.
No, I don't have mental health training but I recognize manipulation and emotional blackmail when I see them. I'm just not stupid enough to buy that she had three "accidental" pregnancies. One accident I'd believe. Three is deliberate.
Any way you slice this, this woman should not be having any more children. Paul needs to take care of things so there are no more "accidents". His wife needs serious psychotherapy and it probably wouldn't hurt to put the four children caught in the crossfire into therapy too. I feel so badly for these kids. They didn't ask for any of this and they're helpless while their mother acts like a self centered witch (I really don't care why she's doing this to her family. She's unstable and needs to be in therapy at the very least and the last thing she needs is another baby).
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