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Just because we were spanked as kids and turned out "ok" does NOT making hitting another human being "ok" and it never will, in my book. It takes a hell of a lot of critical thinking to raise a child disciplined without being physically or psychologically harmed. It's much harder to be creative in your discipline, tailoring it to each individual than just spanking, whipping or otherwise physically hitting them to get your point across. Just because we "can" do something, does not mean we "should"....when we know better, we do better, according to Maya Angelou. I subscribe heartily to that train of thought.
Yes, it is. Some things are immensely simple in their huge complexity.
You dare to accuse those parents of "lacking imagination" yet you don't understand zilch about what those parents often try to do before resorting to spanking, for how long, and with how much frustration.
The reason why many children today are inclined to disobey and to push their parents to the spanking edge is indeed an extremely complex issue that can only be correctly understood if you have the right historical perspective.
Despite popular opinion, fewer children begged for being spanked in the past as they do now. This is because they always felt slightly intimidated by the stature and the authority of the adults in the first place.
Back in those days, the images of "father", "mother", "grandparent", "teacher" carried way more weight, stature and authority in the eyes of the child than they do now - when these figures often act like buddies to the child.
Children felt slightly intimidated/awed by the adults in their life and that was a GOOD THING. In their presence, they were much less likely to let lose and ignore requests for obeying as they do now.
My parents NEVER spanked us - yet they had quite an authoritative, even authoritarian approach. When father was sleeping we knew that you'd better be able to hear a mosquito flying in the house!
We were simply intimidated by our parents' weight. There was virtually no need for spanking, pleading, coaxing or ANY OTHER highly imaginative approaches of the kind you suggest.
We were simply told what we could and could not do and we obeyed. We never got to let lose and thus beg for spanking in the first place. We had an imaginary straight-jacket that came from the authority our parents exuded. They were NOT our friends and they rarely tried to please us or coax us. They protected us, guided us, mentored us, taught us and expected us to show results. They also acted quite important in front of us. Believe it or not - this helps.
There was no "oh, honeeeeyyyy...would you like to do thiiiiiiiiiiis????" (insert high pitch, coaxy voice here).
Today Mom, Dad and Teacher are there to please CHILDREN and make them happy. Children are not there to please mom, dad and teacher.
BIG DIFFERENCE!
Children instinctively know they have the upper hand; and those kids who happen to be born with wilder, more rebellious proclivities will wreak havoc in this kind of "adults-are-here-to-please-you" environment.
Look around you: mom and dad have basically no adult life. Their life revolves around serving the kids. Most have come to convince themselves that this is the best way they could spend their free time anyway because they love "doing things as a family". They "have fun" at kid's soccer game, kid's ballet recital, kid's playground, kid's school, kid's field trip, kid's McDondalds, kid's pool party, kid's something.
Who needs a relaxing night with adult friends and uninterrupted adult conversation? Who needs to speak with a spouse about something else than kid-related stuff, away from the kid's ears?
As soon as people have children, they get buried in stale suburbs where any event that's ever happening is some kind of organized crap for the kids! Even if you don't believe in this kind of lifestyle you end up doing exactly the same as there is no one else to do anything different with.
It's all about THE KIDS!
Do you think they are not capable of sensing that?
By contrast, childhoods of the past often boiled down to: "go do homework in your room, when you're done play there quietly or outside; mom and dad now have guests/having an adult conversation". When the end of the semester came, the report card spoke for itself. If it didn't speak well - there was some sort of Hell to pay.
Note the difference between the "kid exists to please adults" atmosphere of the past and the "adults exist to please kid" atmosphere of today.
You also don't understand that a normal parent WILL NOT and SHOULD NOT have to go through a brilliantly imaginative epic of behavioral modification just to make the child comply. This is again New Age BS.
I have all the imagination in the world and then some but I refuse to do all sorts of imaginative acrobatics that take forever just to coax the child into obeying me - all while he continues to push his luck.
Some children will simply NOT comply unless they are afraid.
"Oh, so you just want your child to obey you out of fear??" ...goes the typical brilliant comeback.
Answer: YES!
My child, just like most others, often doesn't have the maturity to understand my motives and agree with them; so I would not expect him to obey based on reason. Sometimes they will, when they can grasp certain situations - but often times they won't.
Happily, my oldest is past the spanking stage and is a well-behaved, polite, good child with whom you can easily reason now.
He used to be a nightmare. He got spanked.
He emerged as a well-behaved child.
He is all whole, physically and mentally - and he loves us as much as we love him (that would be "to death").
What is most bothersome in this highly ridiculous debate is that PC parents will not find their rest until they shove down everybody's throat their idea of "what is the right type of discipline" for someone else's child.
I know you want to save the world and everything (I am already getting misty-eyed)... but if you have a well-behaved child who always obeyed without any need for physical punishment, fantastic for you! Count yourself lucky. Not "imaginative" - as it is nauseatingly self-congratulatory.
Better yet, abstain from judging those parents who have tried to control their children with all that New Age, often ineffective BS you advocate - and failed for pretty obvious reasons.
Their children are NOT like your children.
Stay out, very much out, of their business!
Where did I say they were my children? No place. AM I in their business, hell no, I don't want to be, but the matter is, the State of Washington made me mandated reporter----- if I see or hear of abuse, and I will do just that, report it. And again, I don't exist to please you, nor, as a matter of fact, do YOUR KIDS. If anyone thinks that, they have severe problems delineating clear and fair boundaries and that in itself can be abusive. Insidiously so.
I am as staunch an advocate as any for other techniques. But this is just not accurate. It is a matter of being misguided and misunderstanding, not willful hate.
And I can understand where it comes from. My father spanked us, much to his dismay, because the bible and his church told him to, because he thought it was good for us. Misguided. Misguided by a church that had the right idea, don't spoil your kids, but didn't know much about children.
For many people, it is what we knew/know. I remember when my son was small, I wound my hand up to strike his little bottom. That is where we were. That is how I was raised. That is what I knew. (That is also when I went on my own little self study on every piece of discipline advice there was. I even read the focus on the family nonsense before discarding it. That is where I got my triumvirate of books I prattle about at any opportunity.)
To add to the confusion, many people view seeking out information about parenting is somehow wrong. I remember my FIL getting all exasperated with me for reading books about parenting. I should be parenting by *instinct* he vehemently insisted. Instinct is great if I want to teach my kids to survive in the wild. But our civilized life is a lot more complicated than that.
Anyway my point is, if you want to affect a change in people's outlook, you may get a hit now and then with reason. But if you tell people that they are just big fat meanies, you will completely lose them, AND any lurker who might otherwise be listening to you.
I agree with you. I don't think that most parents are cruel or hateful, but there are definitely some that are.
My response was probably over-the-top. But I do believe that most spanking stems from the parent's fatigue, frustration and anger and not from any thoughtful meting out of discipline. And then there are the parents who see all child/adult relationships as power struggles and are not for one single second going to let that child exert his or her will because they see it as a threat to their own wills.
Parents are supposed to teach children how to behave. IMHO, spanking is the poorest way to do that because while it might be effective in some instances, it is NOT more effective than time-outs, natural consequences and the taking away of privileges. And if it's not more effective, why would any parent choose to hit their beloved child when they can achieve the same result in a non-violent way?
Just because we were spanked as kids and turned out "ok" does NOT making hitting another human being "ok" and it never will, in my book. It takes a hell of a lot of critical thinking to raise a child disciplined without being physically or psychologically harmed. It's much harder to be creative in your discipline, tailoring it to each individual than just spanking, whipping or otherwise physically hitting them to get your point across. Just because we "can" do something, does not mean we "should"....when we know better, we do better, according to Maya Angelou. I subscribe heartily to that train of thought.
And just because YOU and some others don't believe in spanking, it doesn't mean that spanking is WRONG! It doesn't mean that you are harming a child, either psychologically OR physically. Do-you-under-stand? YOU claim to know "better"....but just because you CLAIM to know it's better to NOT spank, that doesn't mean YOU'RE right....only that you THINK you are.
The title of the thead: "Does anyone take a belt to their kids anymore"? An increasingly unpopular and outdated notion of discipline, and rightfully so. The answer should always be "NO". I don't believe we teach anyone anything by hitting them. I daresay if you hit your boss, a coworker, or a neighbor for wronging you, you would end up sued or in jail, where you would belong. Sadly, our kids don't always have the same option. I can't understand what makes hitting ANYone or any animal, ok. Especially the most vulnerable beings. Maybe that is where some people get the idea it is ok, cause the chances of repercussion are so much less when an individual is unable to stand up for his or her rights.
People seem so violent when it comes to their kids.
The other day they stuck as a people greeter, I was covering some guys lunch.
And the dad and his wife and 3 kids come in and I guess one of the girls wasn't listening to him and he yanked her up by her arm, she had to be about 7 or 8 and then he dropped her, I don't think it was on purpose but he shouldn't have been jerking her up like that, but she came down and crumpled on top of her free arm and she's screaming bloody murder and he just picks her up and puts her in the cart with the other two kids and she's sitting there holding her arm and still screaming and crying.
And the look on his face was pure annoyance. He didn't care that she was hurt or hurting, he looked like he didn't even want to deal with anything he was dealing with.
Many parents wonder whether spanking their child is legal in the State of Washington. The ultimate authority on this subject is the RCW. Parents or guardians can consult the appropriate articles of the Washington RCW ( Revised Code of Washington) online. RCW 9A.42.020 describes what behavior by a parent or any person entrusted with the care of a child is considered criminal.The law says it is criminal to create: "... recklessly an imminent and substantial risk of death or great bodily harm".
The definition of "great bodily harm" can be found in RCW 9A.42.010(c):"Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which involves a temporary but substantial disfigurement, or which causes a temporary but substantial loss or impairment of the function of any bodily part or organ, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily part or organ."
Unfortunately the law does not define the term spanking. Free dictionary.com defines spanking as: "a number of slaps on the buttocks delivered in rapid succession, as for punishment." Google gives a list of definitions from various sources, the most severe of which talks about striking the buttocks with a belt, a cane or a strap. See for yourself if any of these would fall under the definition of great bodily harm in RCW A.42.010(c).
If you are uncertain about the effects of disciplining your child by spanking or switching, do not listen to the opinions of thousands of "experts". Look around you and observe. Ask the children you enjoy having in your house and especially happy children if they are spanked at home and form your own judgement.
Robert Surgenor, detective in charge of the juvenile crime unit of an Ohio police department, wrote a book titled No Fear. He talks about the juvenile offenders who end up in his office, the great majority of whom have never been spanked. He describes many cases in which parents are afraid of their teenage children and come to him for help and protection. He reviews the work of child rearing experts and analyzes the fallacies of statistics. Surgenor holds the view that "..today's parents have been influenced by psychologists to believe that corporal punishment is counter-productive and harmful to children. But, in fact, permissive, uncontrolled parenting is destructive to society.
"Whether you as a Washington parent decide to spank or to switch your child is up to you. Washington State Law does not object.
Arguing a point is not "bullying" and both sides are guilty as hell if that is true. I see a lot of huffing and puffing, people defending their rights to hit others. Unreal. There are far more noble causes to fight for.
People seem so violent when it comes to their kids.
The other day they stuck as a people greeter, I was covering some guys lunch.
And the dad and his wife and 3 kids come in and I guess one of the girls wasn't listening to him and he yanked her up by her arm, she had to be about 7 or 8 and then he dropped her, I don't think it was on purpose but he shouldn't have been jerking her up like that, but she came down and crumpled on top of her free arm and she's screaming bloody murder and he just picks her up and puts her in the cart with the other two kids and she's sitting there holding her arm and still screaming and crying.
And the look on his face was pure annoyance. He didn't care that she was hurt or hurting, he looked like he didn't even want to deal with anything he was dealing with.
I hate seeing people treat kids like that.
You and me both. I hate to see the look on the kid's face when the person they love more than anyone in the world reaches out and smacks them or yanks them around.
And it absolutely makes my blood boil to see a big grown man whacking on a little bitty kid. They are completely unequal in power and there is no need whatsover for a big man to hit a small child. Makes me wish a giant would appear every time the man does something wrong and knock the krap out of him.
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